Do Bible Contradictions Matter?

Growing up a fundamentalist Protestant, I was shocked the day I was confronted with evidence that the Bible contains blatant errors. All my life I had been taught that “God will preserve his Word” and that “not one jot or tittle” of God’s Word would ever change.

That day,

That day the outer shell of my Christian worldview cracked. I didn’t deconvert immediately, but it definitely started the process.

But do contradictions in the Bible really make any difference? Isn’t it possible that when the Bible says that God will preserve his Word, it means that God’s core message to humankind will be preserved— unchanged—forever? Well, that is certainly what moderate and liberal Christians want us to believe it means.

Silly fundamentalists!

During the early days of my four month process of losing my faith (known in ex-Christian circles as “the deconversion process”), I came to accept that minor errors in the Bible aren’t really a big deal. So what, if one Gospel author states that there was one angel at the empty tomb of Jesus and another claims that there were two! Does the number of angels make any difference to the central message of the text? No! The number of angels at the tomb does not change the historical fact that Jesus rose from the dead! And as law enforcement will tell you, eyewitness stories always have some minor incongruencies. What matters is that the central details of the Bible story is correct, right? I felt so much better. My faith had been restored!

But then I started doing some digging.

I studied the evidence for the Exodus: hundreds of thousands, maybe even a couple million, Hebrews departed ancient Egypt en masse. Problem is, modern archaeology can’t find any evidence of this massive migration. None.

I thought to myself: It may not matter how many angels were at Jesus’ tomb but doesn’t it matter if the entire Exodus Story is fictional?? Isn’t it a BIG problem that Jesus seemed to have believed in the historicity of Moses, the Passover, and the Exodus? If the Exodus Story is fictional, what does that tell us about the alleged omniscience of Jesus, the eternal, all-powerful, all-knowing Creator of the universe??

And from there it all unraveled.

So you see, dear moderate and liberal Christians, the individual errors in the Bible probably don’t matter. But when you add them all up, you arrive at the conclusion that the Bible is not a reliable source of historical information. And if the Bible is not a reliable source of historical information, why believe its fantastical claims of talking donkeys, virginal conceptions, water-walking, and dead corpse reanimations?

The Bible’s contradictions do matter!

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End of post.

260 thoughts on “Do Bible Contradictions Matter?

  1. “No! The number of angels at the tomb does not change the historical fact that Jesus rose from the dead!”

    Why would mark never mention a reunion in galilee when he just had jesus prophecy about peters betrayal being fulfilled? Why end his gospel with “they said nothing to anyone” ?

    No fulfilment
    No message of “good news”

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    1. Christians will say that “Mark’s” statement “he (Jesus) will meet them (the male disciples) in Galilee” suggests a knowledge of resurrection appearance stories. I agree that “Mark” most certainly was aware of resurrection stories. What is odd is that he never hints of resurrection appearances in Jerusalem, only in Galilee. The fact that “Matthew”, who seemed to have copied “Mark’s” gospel almost verbatim, also omits any appearances of Jesus to the male disciples in Jerusalem suggests to me that the original appearance stories were based on alleged sightings in Galilee.

      Come on, Christians! If the author of Matthew was an eyewitness and the author of Mark was Peter’s right hand man (John Mark) to whom Peter dictated his memories, as many of you believe, why no mention or hint of any appearances to the Twelve in Jerusalem in the first two gospels???

      Isn’t it obvious: the Jerusalem appearance stories are pure fiction! Inventions for theological purposes; inventions to make the story more dramatic; inventions to convert more saps to the “Way”.

      The Bible is NOT a historically reliable book.

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  2. “Christians will say that “Mark’s” statement “he (Jesus) will meet them (the male disciples) in Galilee” suggests a knowledge of resurrection appearance stories.”

    Having knowledge is based on assumption, why mark never had it fulfilled? Why was there no reunion mentioned? why have jesus make predictions of death and fulfilling those predictions, but never having an appearance narrative?

    So lets say that mark said,

    “I will get killed”

    mark never narrates a story of jesus getting crucified, how will we assume that mark knew that jesus was killed by crucifixion?

    why does mark have peter become an apostate, repent when safe , but never an appearance to peter?

    strange.

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  3. “I am going to get killed and come back to life”

    how does mark demonstrate this?

    women come to the tomb, find it empty, hear a man say “he is risen,” then run away shit scared and say nothing to anyone.

    this was good news for the readers.

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      1. I am thinking mark was writing to christians not to be like jesus’ faithless disciples.
        this makes sense to me. Dont be like these cowards.

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  4. Some Christians will treat you like a rube if you say that biblical contradictions caused you to start doubting your Christian faith – as in, is my faith based on a book that is not actually telling what Jesus actually said and did, who he was, and who God is? While I’m sure some exist, I’ve never met a liberal or moderate Christian who reads other religion’s scriptures with a devotional attitude- what is God teaching me or how is God speaking to me through the Koran and Book of Mormon. If they had a neighbour who was a Muslim and went on about how perfect and non contradictory the Koran was, would not the moderate or liberal Christian read it with a critical eye, and be bothered by its contradictions and inconsistencies?

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  5. oops hit my button sorry,
    men, where is your hope then if you believe that God lied ? how do you know that you have a peace, bliss life after this one ? in the letter, from John the Apostle, 1 John 5:11-13 we can know that we have eternal life, “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, and whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life ” John 3:16, and lastly, our victory is our faith 1 John 5:4, praying for wisdom for you men, Dave

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      1. okay, so lets move from maybe, to I know for sure!! Do you want to be sure ? if you would like can we have an open discussion about how much God loves you right now, and there is nothing you can do to change that fact, so what do you say Gary ?
        hope to chat soon,
        Dave

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        1. Which god are you talking about? I assume that you are talking about the Christian god, Lord Jesus. The problem is, although I believe Jesus of Nazareth, the man, existed. I do not believe that there is any good evidence that the god, Lord Jesus exists. So in order for us to have a productive conversation, you will need to provide good evidence for the existence of your god.

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          1. Gary,
            one of the evidence that I go back to is faith, why did all the apostles die horrible deaths if Jesus wasn’t real ? my thought about the LORD Jesus, God who created the heavens and the earth, yes Jesus is the God in Genesis 1:1, and the same God who spoke to Moses in the burning bush, and lastly; in the Book of Job, the oldest book in the bible, in Chapter 14:13-17, Job talks about how he’ll live forever, but didn’t know how, but believed he would, what is the difference between you and Job ?? Job believed that the Only wise God would renew him…and in the New Testament letter 1 Corinthians 15, Paul picks up the same thought in verses 3 & 4…”according to the scriptures, Gary, thank you for writing, lets continue to discuss and learn from one another, lastly…I’m a simple guy that God saved by His grace, I can tell by experience, Jesus is real, make no mistake about it,
            Dave

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              1. Nan…if you say Jesus is real, and there is only one savior, one faith, one Lord…how can our experiences be different regarding one faith ( see Ephesians 4:1-6 ) our experience is that our justification for our peace with God is our faith in Jesus ( Romans 5:1, “therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” ) but I’m glad you believe in Jesus and He’s real and alive…and coming again!!
                Dave

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                1. Read my comment again. No, wait! I’ll repeat it for you … Jesus in NOT real. The ONLY place he “exists” is in your mind. No, not your “heart.” Your MIND.

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                  1. Nan…thanks for being real with me, and Jesus also loves when your real, it’s where He operates, and He loves you more than you know,
                    Dave

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            1. why did all the apostles die horrible deaths if Jesus wasn’t real ?

              Thousands of people have been willing to die terrible, painful deaths for mistaken beliefs for thousands of years.

              I personally believe that the early Christians sincerely believed that Jesus had appeared to them. The question is, why did they believe this? You believe that a supernatural explanation is more probable for the development of this belief while I believe that a non-supernatural explanation is more probable, such as: an illusion (mistaking a bright light, shadow, etc. for a supernatural appearance of a deceased person), a case of mistaken identity (seeing someone in the distance who looks like the deceased person), vivid dreams, delusions, and hallucinations.

              I’m a simple guy that God saved by His grace, I can tell by experience, Jesus is real, make no mistake about it.

              Dave: What percentage of your belief in Jesus as your resurrected Lord and Savior is based on objective historical evidence and what percentage is based on your personal perceptions and experiences of the resurrected Jesus interacting with you in some fashion?

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              1. Hey Gary
                I’ll give you the horrible martyrs deaths…but I know why, but that is a later discussion, I just got back into town, so I do have a response to this, however I need to put some thought in this, I’ll write in a couple of days if thats okay with you ?
                Dave

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              2. I’m not sure your giving people at that time period enough credit to differentiate a “shadow” “figure in the distance that resembles Jesus” etc. and the actual person Jesus Christ. I understand you’re feelings and thoughts on this and I can tell you I am very much the same. I’m about evidences and facts. What you need to understand is it is very clear in the Bible that hundreds of people saw Jesus and people touched his wounds and saw him up close. It is one thing to have a person act as a double to trick the masses for a cruel trick on humanity it is completely another thing to have someone go up to Jesus and see his wounds and touch them. Jesus was making it very clear with no doubt to all the witnesses he was indeed Jesus Christ. Thinking of all the possible conclusions this could have been out of physiological events or illusions etc. It is far more likely from deductive reasoning this was indeed Jesus Christ. This as a skeptic truly floored me and it took me awhile to come to terms with this conclusion but by dismissing the evidence I realized I would be commenting intellectual suicide.

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                1. What you need to understand is it is very clear in the Bible that hundreds of people saw Jesus and people touched his wounds and saw him up close.

                  How do you know that what the Bible says on this issue is historically accurate?

                  Liked by 1 person

                  1. Even aside from that, a really dedicated deceiver could have splashed some pig’s blood on himself, or even gave himself shallow but bloody cuts, in order to fool an audience up close to him if he already physically resembled Christ. These kinds of convincing disguises weren’t rocket science to produce and even back millennia ago somebody could have pulled it off.

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            2. why did all the apostles die horrible deaths if Jesus wasn’t real ?

              What evidence is there to demonstrate the veracity of this statement regarding the apostles?
              Please provide the evidence or a link.
              Thanks

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    1. How do you know these words are from God? Muslims can quote the Koran to tell us we need to believe their versions of God. Do you believe God was speaking through Muhammad?

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      1. Hi and thank you for chatting,
        so lets talk about starting a foundation…do you believe there is a God, one supreme ruler who created everything, seen and unseen who exercises truth, equity ,with love ? and it would be great to start to unpack with that opening question i just asked you…
        hope you chat soon,
        Dave

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        1. The short answer is no. While there may be some kind of being, supernatural or not, who created all or part of the universe, there is no evidence of what kind of personality it has, good, bad, or uncaring – if it has one at all- or how powerful it is. An uncaring, or stumble bum god with limited knowledge and powers is the best we can infer when observing our universe. That god may not even know we exist, in the same way before the microscope humans didn’t know worlds of living things exist on the flecks of dead skin we lose every day. And even once we did know, we didn’t care.

          That’s without bringing in religious texts. But if we do that we are back to my original question (which you did not answer)

          Liked by 1 person

          1. epicurus,
            oh, wait, hmm…you stated…”there is no evidence of what kind of personality it has, good, bad or uncaring…” so lets think neutral for a moment…how is it that I know love, grief, joy, or how can I reason like what is wrong and right ? unless it has been “created” in me, why do we gasp at horrific crimes?, our sense of humanity has to come from somewhere, Lastly, the Bible says, In the beginning God ( LORD God ) created the heavens and the earth” Genesis 1:1, that is also you and me on day 6 of creation…

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            1. our sense of humanity has to come from somewhere, Who says?

              Animals demonstrate many “humanistic” qualities. Are you saying theirs must also come from “somewhere”?

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              1. I’m created in the image of God, animals have no idea of right and wrong, for example my dog will pee and poo anywhere in front anybody…why ? they have no sense emotion is this right or wrong…they are animals…

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                1. I’m created in the image of God

                  Do you mean you are jealous, prone to irrationality and have genocidal tendencies?
                  Do you own a firearm by any chance? Should we be a little concerned?

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                    1. You wrote you are created in the image of your god, Yahweh.
                      Yahweh claims he is a jealous god.

                      So, are you a jealous person?

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                    2. ok, thank you for you being clear,
                      lets be honest here…my relationship with Yahweh, is based on what He has done for me, I’m a man sold under sin, and It’s only by the grace of God, through faith I’m forgiven, finish work of the cross, now…jealous…you have to define God being jealous, and mans jealousy ? lets go with man, man who is jealous stems from what he thinks he doesn’t have, so will do whatever to get it, why? he wants what he wants for his own pleasure, so do I or have I been jealous of course, but lets talk about God being jealous…the first verse of the Bible in Genesis” In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” God’s jealousy isn’t based on a superficial gain because He can’t get what He wants, rather, it’s from being an all-knowing, compassionate God who loves us and whats the best for His creation…

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                    3. you have to define God being jealous,

                      No, I don’t. Yahweh defined it himself. He ‘says’ he is a jealous god. I’m going to presume you are clued up on the bible to know where he ‘says’ this, yes?

                      So are you a jealous person? It is a simple, straightforward question.
                      All you need to do is answer yes or no or even, ‘sometimes’.

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                    4. The hallmark of the genuine ‘seeker of truth’ is one who, when confronted with the evidence that refutes his beliefs, gives their opponents remarks due consideration and if they have any integrity at all, may well eventually deconvert.

                      You, on the other hand come across as one who is thoroughly indoctrinated into the faith. and you sin was …. drugs, alcohol, pornography, death anxiety?
                      Do you never wonder why you receive a reception like this from non believers, who for the most part know a truck load more about your religion and your bible that you ever likely will, or do you simply put it all down to the influence of Satan?
                      Sigh
                      T’was ever thus.

                      Liked by 1 person

                    5. Wow, I didn’t know you were all that, all knowing, that all wisdom comes from you, you must sit at home on your throne all alone and is satisfied that your right!!
                      My conversation was with others that we established by previous posts and text so who are you? Lastly my facts are NOT from me, they are from the Word of God, if you chose not to believe that’s your choice but you will bare the consequences !! The Bible says we all will appear before God and give an account of what we did, either good or bad

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                    6. Facts?
                      Sorry, I must have missed the comment you presented these facts.
                      Please would you mind repeating them?
                      You can bullet point a few, I don’t need to see them all .
                      Are you ready to unpack the other aspects of how you are created in the image of Yahweh?
                      I think genocidal tendencies was the next on the list?

                      Thanks.

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                    7. Again, just a couple of facts will do. Even just one will be fine to be going on with. Save me ploughing through reams of text.

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                    8. If your serious, and you joined our convo, scroll through, and you can’t find the thread, today after work I’ll give some what I believe will help
                      Thanks
                      Dave

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                    9. Excellent!
                      BYW I am now reading the thread … well most of it( the sermons type comments I simply skip scan or scroll through) … and I’ll be honest, Dave, I could not find a single fact that was relevant to your argument.
                      Claims, yes. Lots of claims. Evidence? None that supports your argument.
                      This is why I asked you to offer just one fact to save time and we could examine it.

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                    10. What do you want ? And if I give you what is fact how do I know you’ll believe it ? I don’t claim I know the answer that your seeking, my faith in God isn’t based by what a man wrote, my faith is based what God did for me, went to the cross for my sins, and as it says, “everyone who calls upon the Lord will be saved”

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                    11. You reply with a question then attempt to answer it in the next sentence,
                      What’s this passive aggressive apologetics?
                      You claim facts, I am asking you to provide just one and you resort to what comes across as a whiny screed.
                      What is the point of you engaging in dialogue if you are unable to defend what you preach with the facts you claim you have?
                      Stop being a wimp!
                      Present these facts you claim you have and let’s see if they are able to stand up to scrutiny.
                      Let me get you started to make it easier for you to compose a cogent reply.
                      Fact 1: ( you write your fact here in the blank)
                      You’re up. Try to keep it on point and concise. No waffle.
                      The floor is all yours.

                      Liked by 1 person

                    12. what do you want to know?, and Nan I thought you were done chatting, just ghost, or troll, right now my conversation is with ark, the rest of you made your points clear, lastly, my dialogue will only be the Bible, and if God is calling you, you’ll know I’m speaking the truth and if I may add did you read Paul’s defense, in 1 Corinthians 1, read purely another view…but look at what he’s saying…and one more point, there are errors in the copies, BUT !! not errors regarding the doctrinal truth of God and His Word, but if you believe the errors is so great, where is your hope ? you all know that the Bible doesn’t save you ? Jesus does, I don’t pray in the name of the Bible, I pray in the name of Jesus, which the Bible teaches us about Him, to know Him, to please Him, and to know you have eternal life…

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                    13. Ark,
                      this is from Billy Graham in regards to all of us, including me…
                      No matter how hard we try or how many arguments we present, ultimately only God can persuade a person that the Gospel is true. Jesus said, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him” (John 6:44).

                      This is why the most important thing you can do for your neighbor is to pray for her. Right now, she doesn’t believe she has any need to have her sins forgiven – and therefore she doesn’t believe she needs Christ. She takes pride in her goodness – but her pride is like a barrier that must be torn down. Pray that she will face her own spiritual emptiness, and that God will convict her of her self-righteousness and her need for Christ. The Bible says the Holy Spirit “will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment” (John 16:8).

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                    14. Ark
                      the post with Billy Graham was about a woman who has the same thought about Jesus…
                      hope it helps

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                    15. Ark,
                      you agree with science ? if so, I’m ready…also Nan, epicurus, Gary…if you like you may join, or tell me to jump off, anywho…lets get started,
                      but, a disclaimer, I’m not a scientist…so all I can do if give facts, agreed ?

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                    16. Wind Currents
                      The book of Ecclesiastes was written between 970 and 930 B.C. during the reign of Solomon. It contains an often overlooked but science based statement about the wind.

                      The wind goes toward the south, and it turns around to the north; it whirls around continually; and the wind returns on its circuits (Ecclesiastes 1:6).

                      How could anyone, thousands of year ago, have known about the pattern of the earth’s winds? This pattern was not begun to be understood by science until the early part of the 19th century.

                      Note that Ecclesiastes 1:6 states the wind goes south then turns to the north. Man has discovered that the earth’s winds do indeed go clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere, and then turns about and goes counter clockwise in the Southern Hemisphere!

                      Solomon said the wind whirls about continually. How could an observer on the ground possibly know that winds can move constantly since such consistency occurs only at high altitudes? This statement about the earth’s winds would not make any sense to those living in Solomon’s day. His inspired fact is yet another one in the Bible that was ultimately proven true by modern science.

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                    17. Shape of the earth
                      Early man thought earth was flat as a pancake. The Bible, however, tells us something different. God, who made all the science facts we take for granted possible, states in Isaiah that he is the one who sits on top of the circle of the earth!
                      It is He Who sits above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers (Isaiah 40:22).
                      The book of Isaiah was written between 757 and 696 B.C. Yet the understanding that the earth actually was round did not become a generally accepted fact of science until the Renaissance! Isaiah’s writing about a circular earth, more than twenty-five hundred years ago, was correct!

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                    18. What holds up the earth?
                      What did humans living many years ago believe held up the earth? The book “World Mythology” by Donna Rosenberg (1994 edition) states many believed it “rested on the back of a turtle.” The book “Myths & Legends” by Neil Philip states that Hindus, Greeks and others believed the world was “held up by a man, elephant, catfish, or some other physical support.”
                      Job is the oldest written Biblical book, dating to around 1660s B.C. Note what it says regarding how God “hung” the earth when he created it, a fact which any science in his day could by no means prove!
                      He stretches out the north over the empty space, and He hung the earth on nothing (Job 26:7).
                      When we look at earth against the backdrop of the rest of the universe, does it not look like it is just hanging in space, hanging from nothing? Gravity, which science is only now coming to understand, is the invisible force that holds the earth “up” in outer space.

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                    19. Flavius Josephus, Antiquities XVIII, Chapter III, Para. 3:

                      Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man; if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was a doer of wonderful works; a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross; those that loved him at the first did not forsake him. For he appeared to them alive again, the third day: as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

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                    20. This historical testimony attests to all the most important facts in the life of Our Lord Jesus Christ: His divine Wisdom, His astonishing miracles, His lofty doctrine, His powerful preaching attracting men and women from all races and cultures; His crucifixion under Pilate and glorious resurrection in accordance with what the great prophets of Israel had written. It shows that all this was almost universally known among the Jews of the time, even those hostile or indifferent to the Gospel.
                      The testimony is so clearly Josephan that it throws all secular critics into the greatest and insuperable difficulties; they have no choice but to desperately plead that it is a forgery to maintain their secularism. But this is an absurd and farcical pretense. The passage fits perfectly with all we know of Josephus’s style and vocabulary; it has unique expressions as “tribe of Christians” and calls Jesus “a wise man,” etc. that occur nowhere else. As the C.E. notes, moreover, “all codices or manuscripts of Josephus’s work contain the text in question; to maintain the spuriousness of the text, we must suppose that all the copies of Josephus were in the hands of Christians, and were changed in the same way.”

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                    21. Its authenticity was universally taken for granted for centuries. From the same C.E. article, “Third, Eusebius (“Hist. Eccl”., I, xi; cf. “Dem. Ev.”, III, v) Sozomen (Church History I.1), Niceph. (Hist. Eccl., I, 39), Isidore of Pelusium (Ep. IV, 225), St. Jerome (catal.script. eccles. xiii), Ambrose, Cassiodorus, etc., appeal to the testimony of Josephus; there must have been no doubt as to its authenticity at the time of these illustrious writers.”

                      We can note that Josephus, like Gamaliel and others, may have been content with discreetly operating within the synagogue — among a number of other possible explanations for why he was not baptized. Regardless, this clear testimony from a historian so universally regarded as credible is convincing proof that the Jews of Jesus’s time were well acquainted with the fact of His Resurrection.

                      Like the holy Shroud of Turin, and the 500 eyewitnesses to the Resurrection, and the heroic lives and martyrdoms of the holy apostles sealing and confirming their testimony to Jesus and His resurrection in their blood, the Testimonium Flavium, as it is called, affords no small proof of the Resurrection! It must command the attention of every serious inquirer into Christianity.

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                    22. here is a secular magazine “Newsweek”
                      google “Is Archaeology proving the Bible ”
                      the author’s name is Eric Metaxas…
                      interesting read

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                    23. Metaxas is a Christian. I asked for facts.
                      Have another go.
                      Oh, and did you miss the word ‘concise’ and my request for no waffle?
                      Let’s try again shell we?
                      FACT 1. ( fill in the blank)

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                    24. Ark, I gave you what you wanted, your first thought is proof the Bible could be true, and I gave facts in science and archaeology and you still rebuff, I can’t make you believe, that’s only comes from Gods Spirit conviction, I have nothing more to offer, except..,have a nice Friday

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                    25. No. I asked for facts. You failed.
                      I never ask for proof. Only evidence.
                      I also said keep it concise and no waffle.
                      You failed again.
                      If you want to try for three strikes be my guest. Or maybe, just maybe you will be able to post a reply as requested.
                      So…
                      Fact 1. ( fill in the blank space)

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                    26. Ark and Gary,
                      the Bible says “faith comes by hearing and that by the Word of God” Romans 10:17, and in Romans 1:16-20 ” I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
                      For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse”
                      Men ( Nan ) I don’t know what you want in proof ? since you men ( Nan ) know the Bible, well, review 1 Corinthians 1:18-24 “For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
                      For it is written,
                      “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
                      and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
                      Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
                      For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
                      For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
                      but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God”.
                      Ark, ( the rest of you scholars ) I can’t make you believe that Jesus is alive and loves you, by some extra-biblical text that will bring you to Jesus… everyone who knows Jesus, we are dependent for Him in every facet of our life, I really don’t know what made you “walk away” from the best relationship that a human can ever have…
                      praying for you,
                      Dave
                      take care,
                      Dave

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                    27. thank you, I’ll take that as proof, that I belong to Christ… Ark, nice chatting with you, have a great night !
                      Dave

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                    28. Hi Ark, how’s your Saturday ?
                      glad your still making comments, so have you been looking at Gary’s and my comments regard Hocking ? I’m still figuring out how when you ask a 6 year 0+0=0 and they get it right every time, that a genius ( self proposed or somebody told him that ) says…no, that not right, you get something from nothing or zero ? I mean you went to 1st grade right ? there is a point to this but I just want you to agree that this is correct…
                      thanks,
                      Dave

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                    29. Hey, Mister dumbfuckwittery!
                      Still trying to figure out what is a fact?
                      Look in a Thesaurus and if you don’t know what one of these is try a dictionary, start at A and continue til you get to F.

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                    30. Ark, and Gary,
                      all I asked was is zero plus zero equals zero yes or no ? and you can’t even answer the question, you asked me for proof, believe it or not I do care about what you think, and I’m listening, I told you men that I don’t know everything and I never said I did…I have consulted men who know the sciences…the reason for the question 0+0=0 is so basic, that higher education says yes…but, a child can answer and come up with the obvious answer ( men numbers aren’t subjective…number are concrete, accurate, has to be, if a number is off (or in this case subjective…well your educated men you know) if you would answer 0+0=0, then I can, if you want, is to show proof that God exists, but that going to be on the Holy Spirit…I can’t make you believe…
                      Ark, and Gary,
                      zero+zero= ?

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                    31. Ark,
                      here’s another
                      PLINY THE YOUNGER: (112 A.D.)
                      Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor who wrote a letter to Trajan regarding how to deal with Christians who worshiped Christ. These letters concern an episode which marks the first time the Roman government acknowledged Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism, and set a precedent for the massive persecution of Christians that takes place in the second and third centuries.
                      “They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sand in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath not to any wicked deeds, not to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor to deny any trust when they should be call to deliver it up, after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food ”but food of an ordinary but and innocent kind.”

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                    32. Ark
                      here’s another…read carefully what this man is saying
                      LUCIAN: (120-180 A.D.)
                      a Greek satirist that spoke scornfully of Christ and Christians, affirming that they were real and historical people, never saying that they were fictional characters.
                      “The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”
                      Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13.

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                    33. Ark,
                      I heard of this book myself, and I’m sure you have too, being secular in all..
                      BABYLONIAN TALMUD: (Completed in the 6th Century A.D.)
                      The Babylonian Talmud is a Rabbinic commentary of the Jewish scriptures (Tanach: Old Testament). They are a look into what is a hostile source was saying about Jesus. They could not deny the miracles but claimed that it was sorcery rather than admit to what was a known fact.
                      “ On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because He has practiced sorcery (an admission of his miracles) and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the even of the Passover.”
                      The Babylonian Talmud, vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a

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                    34. Ark,
                      Evidence for a Flood | Science | Smithsonian Magazine….
                      here’s a secular magazine as well museum, that are starting to believe of a flood…

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                    35. You think this is something we have never heard of before? You’re sounding like an hysterical teen who just caught his first glimpse of a girl’s bra.
                      Keep it in your pants, hotshot.
                      Any moment now you’ll be asking if we’ve ever heard of the epic of Gilgamesh.

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                    36. wow…ok…then I guess we are done,
                      have a great life Ark…”eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die “…
                      Cheers
                      Dave

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                    37. Done? You never even got out the blocks!
                      At least have some integrity and let your kids grow up before they are exposed to the religious ‘woo’ you wallow in, okay?

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                    38. hawking…spelled his name wrong, anyway…he believed in the big bang…and my convo with Gary, was he believed there was nothing before the big bang, and my thought to him ( and you ) “if a 1st grader knows zero+zero=zero, or zero-zero=zero, how does this genius think that something came from zero ?? just a thought,
                      hope your Saturday is good,
                      Dave

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                    39. spelled his name wrong, ….

                      Like most everything else , based on your comments and your blog.

                      Your Ignorance is fixable. You stupidity on the other hand. Well ….. ?

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                    40. ark, we will chat about those events later but lets go with proof, this is Cesear Nero’s Historian…read about the Christians and Jesus, note the date
                      TACITUS: (55-117) A.D.)
                      Cornelius Tactitus is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians in Rome.
                      “Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of on of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the word find their center and become popular.”

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                    41. Listen, Dipshit, I was reading Tacitus when someone was helping you wipe your backside, so don’t think you can pitch up here and fucking quote Annals as if you have a clue what you are talking about.
                      Rather go back to colouring in the dinosaurs in your Ken Ham illustrated bible history.
                      Have a day, abd I hope your kids grow up to have more sense than their father!
                      Sheesh! Bloody fundamentalists. The gods help us!

                      Liked by 1 person

                    42. Gary,
                      I’m sure you heard of Stephen Hocking, the scientist and very outspoken atheist…I might not be as thought thinker as he was, but he has stated that before the big bang was nothing, Gary, you know, you get nothing from nothing..0+0=0 or 0-0=0, or 0x0=0 and so on, I have this simple thought, lets say I’m waiting for a job, say wal-mart, for example, so I sit by all my devises, and wait for the call for the job, but there’s a problem, I did nothing, didn’t apply, didn’t call, didn’t send an email, I did nothing, so how can I expect something, when I did nothing ?? here is the world saying how great he is, yet in simple math, which hinges thermodynamics, a 5 or 6 year old can tell you, nothing from nothing=nothing…
                      Gary, your math skills I’m sure are greater than a 1st grader ?
                      chat soon
                      Dave

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                    43. I graduated from 1st grade to 2nd grade…
                      In Simple math, there is a law, that the simple explains the difficult, you can’t understand quantum physics, or any other physics without a simple foundation, zero plus zero=yep you got it zero…lastly, who made man’s mind ? You can fill it with whatever you want to, but who made man’s mind? You got it, back again you get nothing from nothing, I know I have designer, creator…I didn’t just come from goo that walked out of water a billion years ago, and if you believe, we’ll talk thermo dynamics…

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                    44. Exactly. You are undereducated.

                      Yet you want to convince us (most of us have university degrees) that you are smarter than the smartest human being of our generation (Stephen Hawking).

                      A couple hundred years ago, almost everyone on the planet thought it was as obvious as the nose on your face that the sun revolves around the earth. After all, if we sit outside our house facing south, we can watch the sun rise in the east and set in the west, day after day after day. Even a small child knew, at that time, that the sun revolves around the earth! Sheesh! Kind of like 1 + 2 =3.

                      But common sense turned out to be wrong, didn’t it, Dave? Science turned common sense on its head. And it is entirely possible that science will confound common sense again if scientists discover a process by which something CAN come from nothing.

                      Trusting common sense above science is the sign of an uneducated/undereducated person, Dave. You are making a fool of yourself. Stop, if you have any self respect.

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                    45. Gary,
                      how rude, I’ve told you I don’t know everything, all I was trying to get to say is what is a fact, if your kids teacher told your kids ( I’m assuming you have children ) 0+0=1, you throw a fit, but you go to all this schooling remark and you think I think I know all there is to know ( except spelling Hawking name wrong…please forgive me of this terrible wrong !!) anyway…being educated or not educated, doesn’t make the person or lack thereof, don’t you agree ? my point is with Hawking is he believes nothing before the big bang, and in the very science he believed ( mathmatics ) he knows 0+0=0…how does that change in math ?
                      Gary, don’t be angry with me because I believe in God, just look at the fact of the sum,
                      anywho, I’m getting ready for a business meeting….love to chat more with you and Ark ( btw look at Arks threads about secular writers writing about Jesus, )
                      chat soon
                      Dave

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                    46. Gary and friends, I found an interesting read, its long, and very, very detailed, and it’s blowing my mind…look up “robinsmit author” it is finished…
                      it’s on wordpress, it’s all on word origins and greek,
                      take care
                      Dave
                      p/s: Gary what do you think of Hocking and nothing from nothing ??
                      caio

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            2. I’m not saying evolution is true; however, since you asserted that we should “think neutral for a moment,” we should acknowledge that evolution explains just as well as creation how we came to have many of the emotions you mention. So when you ask how can we act the way we do unless those tendencies have been created in us, it doesn’t seem like you want to “think neutral.”

              You’ve quoted a Bible verse again in your comment to me, so I would like to point out that my original unanswered question to you was about how you know the Bible’s words are from God (any god, including the Christian one). I would ask the same question of a Muslim or Mormon who feels they can quote their holy books to me without explaining how they know the books contain the words and message of their god.

              This question remains unanswered as we are apparently going down the rabbit hole of the Christian view and version of creation vs evolution.

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              1. point taken, okay give a couple of days for a response, however, if your looking to just to argue, I’m not interested, but if your seeking truly how man ( human race is here ) then we’ll continue…chat soon

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                1. I’m not looking just to argue, I’m responding to your claims of knowing ultimate truth. I’m sure you would do the same if someone showed up on your blog and said that your beliefs are wrong, and that they, instead, know what the ultimate truth is. Keep in mind that many people on this blog are ex christian’s, so we’ve heard many of these arguments before, and are more than familiar with all the Bible verses you use. But that doesn’t mean civil, polite conversations can’t occur about what you want us to believe.

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                  1. epicurus,
                    okay, lets say your right there is no god…convince me, I mean it, bring your reason why you believe there is no god, but since you have said people know the Bible better than me, okay; I can receive that, there a lot of things I don’t know either, but you need to be honest that you don’t either…so, epicurus, why is there no god…??

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                    1. I would encourage you to re-read my comments – I didn’t say there was no god – I’m not an atheist. I just don’t think there is the kind of God you describe. Even the Jew’s idea of God evolves through the OT – many god’s to one god which should be followed over the others. You said “one supreme ruler who created everything, seen and unseen who exercises truth, equity ,with love.”

                      I also didn’t say people know the Bible better than you, I said they are more than familiar with the Bible verses you quoted – that doesn’t mean they know the Bible better than you, just that you are not giving any new information by quoting them.

                      I would also like to repeat again that my original question to you of how you know the Bible is from a god or the God or contains the words of God etc remains unanswered. I assume you are attempting to show that an all knowing, powerful, and good god exists, so therefore the bible must be how he communicates to us.
                      That’s a long ponderous debate that I’m not interested in. So if justifying why you believe the Bible in spite of its problems or how you chose it over the Koran is not something you are interested in discussing without a long debate on the existence of an omni God, then lets just agree to disagree. My reasons for leaving Christianity were because of contradictions in the Bible, not the existence of some kind of god or supernatural being.

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                    2. okay…are you up for a little research ? if so then do me a favor…I’m thinking your a person who wants to make sure your footing is as solid as possible…find out what mormons, jehovah’s witnesses, muslims, or the 300 million poly-theistic gods of indian, or asian, and lastly the cancel-culture…they all have one thing in common…epicurus, this not a trick question, I’m dead serious about this, I’m building a foundation to where we can put our feet on, but I will give you a hint about the above religions, nothing spiritual at all, hope that helps in your research,
                      Dave

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                    3. Is it that their founders are all dead but the founder of Christianity is alive? If that is the answer you wanted, it is unfair, because it presumes the Bible is accurate/can be trusted/ is God’s word, etc. Without that we can’t know if Jesus was resurrected.

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                    4. No sir, thats not the answer I’m looking for, you and your friend Gary, have made known to me that your ex-Christians, and your not sure/or do not believe the Bible is accurate, so what do all the religions I previously mentioned have in common ? they are all works based, meaning if I do this, then god will do that, or I hope I do enough good to out weigh my bad…then an interesting thought arises, “how do I know I done enough good to go to my “paradise” ” for example the muslim prophet muhammad says in his writing that allah can change his mind, and even send the prophet to hell, because he’s allah, so where does a man go for hope, peace ? lets talk about peace, what do you do with guilt ? one thing that the Bible and other secular writing texts agree on…man will return to dust…there is one fact you can rely that the Bible is true, man will die…so with that sobering thought, how do you make peace…
                      lastly, founders are all dead, yes, but God is eternal, He is the founder of all,
                      chat soon
                      Dave ( what is your first name ? )

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                    5. How do we know there is a paradise, and how do we know we need to do something or believe something to get there?

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                    6. Your belief, as well as that of many Christians, is based on many, many assumptions. You have not provided any good evidence for the existence of your god, Lord Jesus the resurrected Christ, nor any evidence that he is “eternal”.

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                    7. there is one fact you can rely that the Bible is true, man will die

                      Death is a part of life — whether it’s human life or animal life or insect life or even objects in the universe. And it has been happening since the beginning of time as we know it. So for the bible to say “man will die” is hardly proof of a god.

                      Liked by 1 person

                    8. We do not claim to know as fact that your god does not exist or that any god does not exist. We simply do not see any good evidence for the existence of your god.

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                    9. hey Gary,
                      evidence…look at the sky, stars, sun, how does a planet sit on it’s axis at 26 degrees and rotates at I believe 1,026 miles an hour 93 million miles away…look at your DNA chain, how does your eye see and memory at the same time, how does your body know how to clot a small wound with cloting your whole arm…how do you reason, I’m mean you and I can’t have this talk with any other mammal, except other humans…any way thank you for the conversation, you guys are making me sharper and careful with my repsonse chat soon
                      Dave

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                    10. It is certainly possible that an intelligent being is responsible for the creation of the universe. I have never denied that possibility. However, please provide good evidence that your god, Lord Jesus the resurrected Christ, is the creator of the universe.

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                    11. The same quality of evidence that most educated people today would require to believe that my dead grandfather is the creator of the universe. Jesus was a man who lived and died in the first century. I accept that as fact. Now, give me good evidence that he was a god, that he is alive today, and specifically, that he is the eternal creator god.

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                    12. Gary !! Holy Moly dude !! For you to admit Jesus was a man, human, is a huge statement, now ask the question, how can Jesus not be God, creator ? Think about the Jews and Him having discussions ? Why were the Jews so mad and hated Him ?

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                    13. And why were people mad at other messiah pretenders? Just because people were mad at Jesus’ wild claims about himself is not good evidence that his claims were true. Many Christians were mad at the claims of Joseph Smith. Does that mean Joseph Smith was right??

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                    14. so, lets go to the first question…when there were false messiahs, they were killed, and guess what, their bodies are still in their graves, Jesus said destroy this temple and 3 days I’ll raise it again, and guess what, He did, the proof ? where is Jesus’ body ? every false prophet, and Godly prophet bodies decayed, and is in their graves- where is the body of Jesus ? the Romans couldn’t show one, the Jews didn’t either ? you know in todays court sessions, the prosecution needs to have the body to prove someone is guilty, or it’s not heard in court of law, the body of the so-called victim is crucial evidence to prove a case, but our discussion, since there is no body, then you have to maybe there is truth to Jesus’ claims, maybe Jesus is who He said He is…
                      Joseph Smith, doctrine is a doctrine of works, What Jesus did is He rescued the world from their sins, a payment that we can’t ever repay, that why the “Gospel” is called good news, God did what we couldn’t do, is to keep the law without sin, Jesus did…Jesus knew who He was and why He came to earth…

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                    15. where is Jesus’ body ? [in] our discussion, since there is no body, then you have to [believe that] maybe there is truth to Jesus’ claims, maybe Jesus is who He said He is…

                      Maybe someone took Jesus body. An empty grave only proves that the body is gone. It does not tell us why. If we allow for the supernatural, yes, it is possible that Jesus’ body was moved by a supernatural force (a god). But it is also possible that his body was moved by a natural force (a human or an animal). An empty grave proves nothing.

                      And since I’m sure you will bring them up: as far as the alleged appearances of Jesus, I do not believe that the Gospels are historically reliable sources of information. Their primary purpose was “so that you might believe”. I’m sure that you believe that the Gospels are historically reliable. We will never agree on that subject. However, what we can agree on is that the reliability of the Gospels is disputed: a significant percentage of scholars doubt the eyewitness/associate eyewitness authorship of the Gospels. Bottom line: Disputed eyewitness testimony is not very strong evidence, especially if that alleged eyewitness testimony is from 20 centuries ago in the ancient past.

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                    16. Hmmm…okay, so you believe any document isn’t reliable if it is older than say couple hundred years, where is your your line that says this is too old to believe because it’s old ??

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                    17. Gary,
                      I don’t trust any person ! I don’t even trust myself, why, because I’m a sinner, and my heart will always look for the easiest way out…The heart is deceitfully wicked and beyond finding out, who can know it ? Jeremiah 17:9…

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                    18. There’s even changes to things we thought we knew about WW2 as vaults are opened and classified docs are released.

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                    19. Joseph Smith’s doctrine is a doctrine of works

                      So what. Maybe the true God is Yahweh (not Jesus of Nazareth or the Christian Triune god), and Joseph Smith is Yahweh’s last and final prophet. How would you know for sure? Faith?? Millions of Mormons use faith to tell them that the Book of Mormon, the message “received” by Smith is true. How can you prove them wrong? If we simply go by who is using “faith”, we can’t know. So “faith” doesn’t sound like a reliable means of determining truth, does it, Dave?

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  6. Okay I just realized that Epicurus, Gary, and Nan are all on this thread lol, okay I’m slow on the up take lol
    Gary, okay you do believe that your created in the image of the one who made you, however your not sure if Jesus is real and alive from the dead, but the exact image of the unseen God okay…
    You said you know the Bible as well as your friends, that’s good too…I’m curious why you don’t believe, why you stopped trusting in the Lord, now I can pop off a bunch of Bible verses but, it’s not going to do you any good, since you lack the very thing needed, FAITH..,I’m going tell you I don’t understand a lot of what the Bible says and I have heard a lot of people try to explain some of the things, but it’s really not that important to me, the bottom line is this, JESUS is real, and my prayer is for you and your two friends on this thread, it’s doesn’t matter what I think, because I didn’t create myself, I didn’t asked to be born, Jesus didn’t make sense to me so that’s why I believe, for me it was mercy, and grace, I’m 57 and I have hurt a lot of people and the question I asked this can’t be all to this existence, getting up do my thing, work, pay bills, try to be a good husband, go to bed and then you die, NO WAY!! The way of most people is being good, tax paying, law obeying, but then what, when do stupid things or do wrong now what ? This life of mine is in the Hands of God, this isn’t feelings thing, feelings, happiness is subjective you have a great day your good, but you get fired, Lose a friend, wife leaves you…now what…you believe Jesus wants that for you ? That’s why the Bible has survived thousands of years, to tell us there is one God, and one Savior Jesus Christ… Gary, I will give reasons and proof that Jesus is real,
    Sorry for the long response
    Dave

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    1. … and then you die. So, if I remember my bible readings correctly, this is not the end for “believers,” right? So my question is … what do you think you will be doing for “eternity”? If you remain in human form (and there’s no indication in “the word” that you won’t), what do you think (based on bible scripture, of course) you will spend your time?

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Nan, thats a great question, so here we are four men, I’m assuming you and epicurus are men as well, are having a talk about the most important conversation any person will have…what happens after I die…and if we are thinking that the question, Then my next question is What is my purpose, why am I here, and is there an after life, Nan, you, epicurus, Gary and myself are eternal beings, the body we all have is called a tent, temporary 50-80 years, but my outer frame isn’t who I am, it’s my soul, spirit, thats what will live forever, but WHERE ?? I know you guys talk about different “holy” books, but The LORD God says, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” so I’m thinking for every man is to stop and look and ponder why do people live and die, for example, I have a tree that was here before I was and more than likely will be here when I die, what’s point to that statement…I’m here for an appointed time and the creation around will be here after I leave, so what is the point to my existence…to grope, feel around for the truth ( apart from God we walk in darkness ) so we are groping to know God in a personal relationship, and to know what He desires from His creation…US, you and me…and thats what we are doing right now, this discussion…groping, feeling around to find our way ( to be truthful here our way is Gods way, but till we find it we are groping )
        thank you guys for this conversation, I know you guys are asking the right questions, I’m just in awe how merciful, and gracious God is… chat soon,
        Dave

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        1. First, I’m not a guy.
          Second, I’m not an eternal being. My last breath will be the end of me (and that doesn’t bother me one bit).
          And Third — you didn’t answer my question. How will you spend your time for eternity?

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              1. Hi,
                what am I going to do for eternity ? the same thing I’m doing now, be amazed that God, creator of everything would want me with Him forever ! but, I’m sure there is more to it, and I don’t really care, I’m only glad God chose me, may God be praised forever and ever ! and may I add one thing, you and me are exactly the same…God loves us the same no matter what you do, or I do, good or bad…the difference between you and me is faith, this is what justifies me before a Holy God, you know why, I’m not going to insult you…no man or woman can ever work, do good things to make yourself right, before God, thats why Jesus came, to take the sins of the world upon himself, and whosoever believes will be saved
                chat soon,
                Dave

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        2. Nan, you, epicurus, Gary and myself are eternal beings, the body we all have is called a tent, temporary 50-80 years, but my outer frame isn’t who I am, it’s my soul, spirit, thats what will live forever,

          Assumption.

          I’m here for an appointed time and the creation around will be here after I leave, so what is the point to my existence…to grope, feel around for the truth ( apart from God we walk in darkness ) so we are groping to know God in a personal relationship, and to know what He desires from His creation…US, you and me…and thats what we are doing right now, this discussion…groping, feeling around to find our way ( to be truthful here our way is Gods way, but till we find it we are groping )

          Assumption after assumption. Just because the Bible says something does not make it true, Dave. You are going to need better evidence than just “the Bible says it so I believe it”. You are not using critical thinking skills.

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          1. whoa, wait, you can’t have it both ways…you said you don’t know if Jesus is the messiah or not, so you are groping in the darkness, your assumption, is that I’m wrong, so if I’m wrong will that faith hurt me in the end, no we are in the same boat, but, what if I’m right, and Jesus is who He is and the Bible is true,…then my friend you lose everything,

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    2. I have a Muslim friend who states that if I will have faith, Allah will show me the truths of the Koran. I have a Mormon friend who tells me to read the Book of Mormon, and that while I am reading the Book of Mormon, God will reveal himself to me. So Christians are not alone in asking people to have faith. Many religions and cults ask potential converts to have faith. So is “faith” a good method of determining truth? Isn’t there a better method to determine truth?

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      1. ask your muslim friend, how do you know you have eternal life, and that allah won’t send him to hell ? I know bold, very bold, however, when you die and you die in your sins, there is no hope, no reincarnation…Mormons, they’re the nicest people I’ve ever met, but ask him what he needs to “be continuing saved” brutal works, and giving of money, if you friend is honest, but he won’t tell you that, or you won’t convert to be a mormon

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        1. But how do we know which of you (the Christian, the Muslim, or the Mormon) has the true faith? If all three of you have faith, faith doesn’t seem to be a reliable means of determining which of you (if any) is right.

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          1. okay, what makes the muslim faith appeal to you ? or what makes the teaching of the mormons appeal to you ? only you can answer those questions…like you and your friends have stated, my faith isn’t like your faith, I’ve heard that from this thread a couple of times…but, the teaching of Jesus in the Bible, tells me that I do not deserve anything from God because of my sins, my rebel heart is the problem, so God did something about it, Jesus came to the earth, for man’s sin…I can never be right with God, ever, because I’m a sinner at conception…but I can be justified, by faith in Jesus and what He did, He took all my sins upon Himself, died, buried, and rose again, and how is this possible…because God does not lie, and He said He would and did…I’m going to quote the Bible, without faith it is impossible to please God…” Hebrews 11:6…

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            1. I believe that Jesus was a delusional, scientifically-ignorant human being, not a god. You have not provided any good evidence for me to change my mind on that issue. Quoting passages from an ancient middle-eastern religious text is not good evidence, Dave. From everything you have presented, I see your beliefs as a superstitious delusion; a very comforting delusion, but a delusion nonetheless.

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              1. Gary,
                do I have permission to contact you in the future if I find a text that may interest you ?
                thank you for your time to chat with me, I pray that God will open your eyes…
                take care, and be safe,
                Dave

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                  1. Hi Gary,
                    Do you believe the following statement by Julian Huxley ?
                    “I believe that one should be agnostic when belief one way or the other is [1] mere idle speculation, incapable of verification; [2] when belief is held merely to gratify desires, however deep-seated, and not because it is forced on us by evidence; and [3] when belief may be taken by others to be more firmly grounded than it really is, and so come to encourage false hopes or wrong attitudes of mind.”, Gary, let me know your thoughts,
                    Thanks,
                    Dave

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                    1. Gary,
                      I just wanted to see where your thought process is, I know you think I’m in the darkness, that’s okay, in a little while I’ll add to statement by Huxley, but I’m at work for I know money doesn’t grow on trees lol
                      Chat soon
                      Dave

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                    2. Hey Gary,
                      I have some time to ask a question or two,
                      First question are you a hard or soft agnostic ? Meaning do you say there is no way for certain to know what is true? As the hard agnostic sees thingsOr the soft approach, your not sure and your open for more dialogue ?
                      Any way hope your day is good
                      Dave

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                    3. I am a “soft atheist”: Negative atheism, also called weak atheism and soft atheism, is any type of atheism where a person does not believe in the existence of any deities but does not necessarily explicitly assert that there are none.

                      I am also a soft a-leprauchanist and a soft a-unicornist. I do not believe in leprechauns or unicorns but I do not rule out the possibility that these creatures exist.

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                    4. Hi Gary,
                      I do not believe any person is an atheist, and Gary I didn’t use the word “atheist” the word I used is agnostic ( or better a person who isn’t sure of a deity )…. but, I do like your humor..lol,
                      I would like to see if you agree this definition describes you…would you call yourself “epistemologist ” or another words a person seeking how a truth claim can be verified or shown to be true, how do we know and how do we know that we know ?? I’m sure as you are a learned man, this is old philosophy…any way love to have more discussions,
                      chat soon,
                      Dave

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                    5. Gary, and epicurus, hello
                      where I’m going with this…I’m going to my best to tell you I have the cure for cancer, cancer of the soul, and like any patient he/she either takes the advice of the Dr. or not as long as it’s presented, and the information is received honestly,
                      do we agree on this ?

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                    6. But what if a stranger walks up to me on the street and tells me he is a doctor, and that I have cancer and he has the cure. I ask him how he knows – he says he has a book that tells him everyone does. I ask him if he has a medical degree and where he studied- he won’t tell me where he studied, and he has no proof he actually is a medical doctor. I ask him why his instant diagnosis disagrees with actual certified doctors who have tested me- he won’t tell me. He just keeps insisting he knows. What would you say to him?

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                    7. epicurus, you have to believe that you have cancer !! the problem is we all have cancer, called life, although life is beautiful and has wonderful moments and times, the reality it will end, the Dr. is Jesus, thats why He came, to give us life, but the cancer I’m talking about is sin, it’s the things we do that has and will condemn us and thats is the cancer that will keep us from Him…the question is what Doctor is right ?

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                    8. How do you know the cancer is sin? Where did you get this information? How do you that wherever you got the information from is a reliable source?

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                    9. epicurus great question and the question alot of people don’t ask, the answer of the first question, is found in the reliable source, your third question…The Bible, but before we go there, how do we know the Bible is in fact what it claims, the very Word of God, to be honest, I want to go through this journey with you, It’s been a while since I looked “how” the Bible is what it claims…does that sound like a plan ?

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                    10. That’s fine – it is, after all, what I asked you to address at the very beginning of this, and when you deferred, I kept continually asking you.

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                    11. lol, it wasn’t I was deferring, I wanted to make sure you wanted to know the truth no matter how painful it is, Lord willing we will chat tomorrow, Dave

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                    12. I do, that’s why I left Christianity. I asked myself “if I’m wrong, would I want to know it.” And I discovered I was wrong, and I left. It was painful, and I didn’t like it, but if I wanted to follow truth, I had to leave. The Bible Is not a reliable document and cannot be trusted to tell us about God or what Jesus actually said or did or who he was. The gospels and many of the letters were not written by eyewitnesses. Jesus was a failed apocalyptic prophet who thought the world would end within a lifetime, as was Paul.
                      How about you? if you are wrong, would you really want to know? Could you make the hard decision, or is being a Christian and believing you have a relationship with someone long dead to too painful to give up, even if it’s a lie?

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                    13. epicurus,
                      The Bible is written by eyewitness yes, but God the Holy Spirit wrote through men who were moved by Him, and if your willing I’ll bring more, however, my thought “how do you know your right?” Where is your research ?“And how do you know the Bible is wrong?” And where is your research on that as well ?
                      Chat soon
                      Dave

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                    14. Nan
                      Bring it, I’m not so proud to say I don’t know every answer, but with Gods help I’ll try give the best defense of Gospel, it’s up to you to believe..,

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                    15. I wanted to see what you would do when given a taste of your own medicine – now I know. You suddenly see the need to back up claims and show research. I’ve been asking you to do this for your claims since you started commenting here. Yet you wouldn’t, instead just changing the subject and making more claims without evidence.
                      So you know how to use some kind of critical thinking skills when you want to, it’s just that in this conversation, you don’t want to. Instead you just rely on faith, and expect everyone to believe you, just like Mormon missionaries do when they knock on my door. You are no different from them. I can’t see any way this conversation can be productive if you are unwilling to apply the same standards of justifying what you assert to yourself that you apply to others.
                      So it seems pointless to continue. I wish you the best and hope that if you really are interested in truth that someday you will realize the good feelings your religion gives you blinds you from seeing the truth.

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                    16. epicurus
                      what do you want to know ? I can give you proof that the Bible was transliterated exactly to the ancient texts, but that isn’t going to change you….you need to be justified, the only way is to place your faith in Jesus, but you know that…so my next thought is what are you looking for if Jesus is not the Logos, or the Word of God ?

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                    17. You’ve established that you are not interested in truth or evidence, so there is no point continuing with this discussion.

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                    18. so…where is your proof ? show me that the Bible is wrong, seriously…I love to see YOUR research. Please…tell me the Bible is wrong

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                    19. You show up here claiming to know truth and that the bible is the word of God. I asked you how you know this, you play games and change the subject, then after I ask you several more times, you arrogantly tell me you were testing me to see if I could handle the truth. Yet you still offer no evidence for your claims. Then when I say there is no point in continuing if you won’t justify what you are preaching here, you flip it around
                      and try to put the onus on me to provide evidence why I don’t believe what you are preaching. Is it really that hard for you to see what is wrong with this?

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                    20. All I read from you is you rejecting that the Bible is truth, I’m not arrogant, you tell me I don’t have proof, hers my proof, textual criticism ?? Look it up, find out how meticulous the scribes copied the each page of the ancient manuscripts, delve into the Septuagint, ( that’s the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew text, ) if your serious you will not be agnostic…then again without faith you can’t please God,
                      Happy reading
                      It will blow your mind
                      Dave

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                    21. Are you aware that textual scholars believe that story of The Woman Caught in Adultery and the story of The Healing at the Pool of Bethesda were scribal additions to the originals?

                      If Christians a generation or two later were willing to make up stories like these, why is it not possible that the original authors made up some of their material?

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                    22. Here are evangelical/conservative Protestant sources which admit that most scholars believe that the story of The Woman Caught in Adultery was not in the original gospel:

                      https://bible.org/article/my-favorite-passage-thats-not-bible

                      Biola University (an evangelical institution) states that passage of The Story of the Woman Caught in Adultery should not be removed from the Bible but it should be placed on indefinite “probation” due to questions about its authenticity.

                      https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-book-blog/2012/does-the-passage-belong-in-the-bible-the-woman-caught-in-adultery-john-7-53-8-11

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                    23. The textual criticism I assume you are referring to, which is the world of late 19th century and 20th century scholars, has done the opposite of what you assert – it has shown that scribes changed manuscripts, both intentionally and unintentionally. There are examples of scribes changing, adding, and removing text, as well as adding stories, such as the woman caught in adultery. I would suggest you read “The Text of The New Testament: It’s Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration” by Bruce M. Metzger, who was professor of New Testament Language and Literature, Emeritus, at Princeton Theological Seminary.

                      You will also discover some of the problems with the Septuagint, such as mistranslated words out of Hebrew into greek which Christians then turned into “fulfilled” prophecy – one of the best examples is Isaiah 7:14, in which the Hebrew says young woman, but the Septuagint translators turned into Virgin.
                      You couldn’t resist getting a little dig in, ” if your serious you will not be agnostic…then again without faith you can’t please God,” (there is that arrogance of yours again),

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                    24. lets go with the Septuagint translation young woman ( the virgin is implied, young women were virgins, by the law the parents could stone her to death if she wasn’t ) it’s not a mistranslation, also the translators feared God, young women( teens ) even today are virgins, the translators still kept the truth that Jesus was born of a young woman who was a virgin ( Mary ), no mistranslation, arrogance, hmm, okay sorry, I just want you to be serious on your relationship with a God you don’t believe in…yet, but the verse in Hebrews about faith, without it you can’t please God…not sorry thats the kind of faith I’ll die for.

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                    25. Women married young, I disagree that virgin is implied. As well, a reading of the full context of the situation of the story doesn’t imply a virgin.

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                    26. you have to know the law, children were betrothed at birth, meaning if the young woman wasn’t a virgin, by the Law of Moses, she would be stoned to death, and also the man who forced her by rape was stoned to death

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                    27. Here is a quote from page 74 of “Jesus Interrupted” by Bart Ehrman, professor of religious studies at UNC Chapel HIll:
                      (P.74) We have seen that Matthew is particularly keen to show that everything in Jesus birth, life, and death was a fulfillment of Scriptural prophecy. So why was he born of a virgin? It was because the Hebrew prophet Isaiah indicated that “a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call him Immanuel” (Matthew 1:23, quoting Isaiah 7:14). Actually, that’s not exactly what Isaiah said. In the Hebrew Bible, Isaiah indicates that a “young woman” will conceive and bear a son, a prediction not of a future Messiah but of an event that was soon to take place in Isaiah’s own day.3 When the Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek, however, Isaiah’s “young woman” (Hebrew alma; there is a different Hebrew word for “virgin”) came to be rendered by the Greek word for “virgin” (parthenos), and that is the form of the Bible that Matthew read. And so he thought that Isaiah was predicting something not about his own day but about the future Messiah (though the term “Messiah” does not occur in Isaiah 7). So Matthew wrote that Jesus was born of a virgin because that’s what he thought Scripture predicted.

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                    28. Following is from my book and is based on research I did on this issue —

                      The Bible has been translated into more than 450 languages since its early beginnings. When considering the various translations of the Bible, it is important to recognize that “all translation is interpretation, and none is strictly literal.”16 In addition, it is not always possible to carry certain words or phrases in one language over to another while keeping their meaning or impact intact. In many versions of the Bible, the word (almah) is translated as “virgin” (a word with strong connotations in the English language). Jewish scholars declare this is incorrect because almah means “young woman” and denotes age, not virginity or sexual purity. The Hebrew word most commonly used for virgin is bethulah.

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                    29. here another proof, The Textus Receptus (Latin for “Received Text”) is a Greek New Testament that provided the textual base for the vernacular translations of the Reformation Period. It was a printed text, not a hand-copied manuscript, created in the 15th century to fill the need for a textually accurate Greek New Testament.

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                    30. Unfortunately, the TR is not considered to be one of the better manuscripts by modern standards. I’m sure you’ve heard of the troubles Erasmus had with missing parts that he just wound up translating from the Vulgate, as well as the controversies with the Johnnine Comma (1 John 5:78), which was not in his greek manuscript but was mysteriously produced by an unknown source because they wanted it in there. If you are not familiar with these stories and the various problems with Eramus and the TR, and how it came to be called the TR, I would recommend “Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why” by Bart D. Ehrman, professor of Religious Studies at University of North Carolina Chaple Hill. As well, the book by Bruce Metzger I mentioned in another comment also deals with the problems of the TR Manuscripts.

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                    31. So. now are you saying that it is the “message” that is inerrant, and not the Bible? That is a very important distinction so I hope you will think carefully before answering it.

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                    32. Yea, you keep making statements like that without providing evidence. It’s getting old.

                      Why don’t you just admit it, Dave: Your belief is not based on historical evidence. Your belief is based on the intense feelings of comfort, peace, and security which belief in Jesus gives you.

                      The belief that you have an invisible, superhero friend who watches over and comforts you 24/7 and has promised you life-ever-after is why you believe, Dave. As long as you continue to believe in the presence of your invisible (imaginary) friend in your “heart”, no amount of historical evidence is ever going to change your mind.

                      And BTW, that still, small voice you hear, Dave, is…YOU.

                      You are beguiled by a delusion.

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                    33. lol, okay…men, I’m calling a truce for the night, getting my daughter to bed, God Bless you men, sweet dreams,
                      Dave

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                    34. Perhaps – without the John Comma proving the Trinity gets a whole lot harder, as there are no other versus that speak to it that forcefully, it instead must be inferred from a range of other not so clear passages. So you tell me.

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                    35. also this text…the main language in the first century was.. Latin, The Vulgate” is the popular name given to the Latin version of the Bible, a translation usually attributed to Jerome .Before Jerome’s time, as the number of Latin-speaking Christians grew, the Bible was translated into Latin so that the Christians of the time could understand it.

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                    36. It would be good to make a distinction between the latin west and Greek east. The main language of the eastern part of the empire was Greek during the first century – which is where most of the Christian 1st century story takes place, with the obvious exception of Paul’s trip to Rome. Jerome’s Vulgate was several hundred years later, for western empire Christians who didn’t know greek (Augustine is an example of this).

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                    37. think about the Romans who ruled the ancient Israel and the surrounding cities… the world who did commerce with Rome had better known Greek, as for Latin like I said that was 500 some odd years ago ? doesn’t matter east or west, it’s the same language, like English from America and the UK, still understandable English

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                    38. I’m not following this comment, if you would care to rewrite it or proof read it to correct some ambiguities such as that was 500 years ago and dealing with Rome better know Greek, I will try to answer.

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                    39. Textual criticism collects and examines the evidence about written works in an attempt to recover the original text. Therefore, textual criticism is not criticizing the Bible. Because no originals exist of the sixty-six books of the Bible, textual criticism must be applied to Scripture to reconstruct the true text.,
                      epicurus, I just gave hours of study time to you, and I believe your not a flake, but pride yourself to be “in the know” if the info I gave doesn’t have you think the Bible is inerrant, nothing will…may God Bless you as you study these precious tools,
                      Dave

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                    40. Please see my other reply regarding Textual Criticism and books you should read to help you understand it better.

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                    41. Would you mind defining what you mean by inerrant? It is an every changing, slippery fish, Some scholars, such as Peter Enns have been kicked out of their schools for claiming to believe in inerranvy but then say the Bible has errors. A quote from Dallas Theological Seminary Professor Charles Ryrie made almost 60 years ago saying how the definition keeps changing is still relevant today:

                      “Just to illustrate how times have changed, not many years ago all one had to say to affirm his belief in the full inspiration of the Bible was that he believed it was “the Word of God.” Then it became necessary to add “the inspired Word of God.” Later he had to include “the verbally, inspired Word of God.” Then to mean the same thing he had to say “the plenary (fully), verbally, inspired Word of God.” Then came the necessity to say “the plenary, verbally, infallible, inspired Word of God.” Today one has to say “the plenary, verbally, infallible, inspired, and inerrant-in-the original manuscripts Word of God.” And even then, he may not communicate clearly!”

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                    42. “where are the errors that change to message of the gospel…”
                      Sorry, that doesn’t make sense to me as a definition of inerrancy. Could you revise or reword it?

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                    43. one last piece of information to think about, it’s alot to take in…
                      many people equate faith with a blind leap in the dark or wishful thinking. But the faith that the Bible requires is “intelligent,” or “reasonable” faith. It is neither blind nor irrational. Biblical faith asks us to put our trust in an object (God) who is worthy of our faith. No one is asked to sacrifice their intellect when they put their faith in the God of the Bible. The Christian faith is based upon the solid foundation of what the living God has done in history. He has revealed Himself to humanity and this disclosure of Himself is recorded in the Scriptures. The Bible tells us what God requires of us and that we are to respond to Him by faith. In doing so, we are never expected to stop thinking or to “assassinate our brains.” In fact, Jesus emphasized that coming to God involves the mind as well as the heart and soul. When asked about the greatest commandment in the law, He responded as follows:
                      Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. (Matthew 22:37)
                      Notice that Jesus said that we are to love the Lord with all of our “mind.” The Bible expects its readers to use their minds to evaluate the truth, to weigh the evidence of its message.

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                    44. The Bible expects its readers to use their minds to evaluate the truth, to weigh the evidence of its message.

                      What is the best evidence for the alleged bodily resurrection of Jesus?

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                    45. Eyewitnesses, why lie about it when you know it’s a lie? I mean would you die for a lie you know is a lie ?, also where is the body of Jesus ? And if the disciples did steal the body, why die for another lie when you know it’s a lie ??

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                    46. You have to believe the stories of some of the apocryphal gospels not considered to be scripture, and later church tradition to say you know all the disciples were martyred. Only James and Judas death are mentioned in the Bible Protestants are iffy on Church tradition, which also says Peter was the bishop of Rome, and head of the church, and the basis for Roman Catholic supremacy. But I assume you are an evangelical protestant, so you probably don’t want to believe that. So saying we know all disciples were martyred requires belief in sketchy documents that most protestants reject.

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                    47. Hi epicurus, and Gary,
                      last night before I go bed, I pray, I consider my day, like for example; my career as an instructor with Adults with special needs…how did I make an impact ? was I kind ? did I listen to them or just go through the motions, I know that God created these precious people for a purpose, now continuing our topic and the reason I’m that concerned by what I do ? because God sees me; nothing I do is out of His sight, in regards with all the so-called giants of unbelief, I’m not going to lie, and I said before I’m not so proud to say I don’t know, if your honest, you’ll look that up somewhere in our chats and see that I said that, so I’m going to leave you the truth, even you don’t believe it, like unicorns, and leperchauns…yes Gary that was one of your thoughts you wrote…
                      here is where we both stand, and I pray that you receive this truth, sincerely from my heart,

                      For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
                      For it is written,
                      “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
                      and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
                      Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
                      For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
                      1 Corinthians 1:18-25,
                      so men…lets talk about…the weather, favorite food, etc…
                      lastly, you men ( and Nan ) by your questions and debate, solidified my faith in the Living God, who loves me so much that Jesus went to the cross for my sins,
                      you all have a great day
                      Dave

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                    48. What I take away from this sermon is that you don’t think evidence and critical thinking matter, only faith. Even though yesterday you gave another semon to us about the Bible doesn’t expect us to give up our brains.

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                    49. Think about it, why are you here ? What is your purpose ? To tell people who know God that they’re wrong? If I believe the Bible is the only authoritative Word of God and I do, and the Bible tells me to to tell the world that God is real I’m living by faith and obedience to what I know is truth , but like I showed this morning, your looking at wisdom on your terms. God wisdom is by those who believe in Him…faith justifies my position with God, not that I’m good or deserve it, “ it is the gift of God”…
                      So how’s the weather ??

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                    50. And yet,yesterday you were saying “But the faith that the Bible requires is “intelligent,” or “reasonable” faith. It is neither blind nor irrational.”
                      Now, you seem to be saying the opposite, and dismiss me with asking how the weather is.
                      Ok then, but keep in mind a couple days ago I said there was no point in continuing because you wanted to use faith instead of evidence and critical thinking, you then said you wanted to keep discussing.
                      It seems if you don’t get your way, you want to change the rules. Now it seems like you are no longer interested. Fine. I’m done. I won’t answer anymore of your comments. Count on it.

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                    51. Lol, see YOU think I’m wrong!! I’m doing exactly what the Bible tells me, so I’m just now simplifying my message, all those scholars with all the text makes my mind spin, so like I said to Gary and Nan, you can’t approach God on a wisdom that is contrary, thats not from faith( read if you like 1 Corinthians 1) the whole chapter, there Paul lays out how the Corinthians believed and every man/woman will come to faith, after also if you also criticize everything you think is not what you think, then your beyond me and all I can say, let’s talk about global warming or whatever because the only way you’ll change is that God calls you and you believe,
                      I hope that clears it up, and I’m serious about this too.
                      Chat soon,
                      Dave

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                    52. You and I are imperfect, have you ever lied, stole, fornicate ?? But God created all man for His purpose, I don’t deserve to be saved, but that’s where Gods grace comes in like a shining light!! As for the adults with special needs, ever met one? You show them kindness they will love you forever, lastly, I’ve learned forgiveness and loyalty from them, that I haven’t ever seen in the “ normal “ minded people around, if you have an issue with how God creates, you take it with Him, what a thoughtless, selfish comment!! Even coming from you Nan…

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                    53. Your talent (?) for misconstruing the comments/questions of others on this blog … along with your ability to avoid providing direct answers to direct questions … is very well honed.

                      But why am I surprised? This is the modus operandi of every believer.

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                    54. So what do you do when the monsters come ?? and yes I’ve had monsters in my life and if it weren’t for Jesus I really don’t know where I be today,
                      Second, as I said to Gary, I believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, and if I believe it to be so,( and I do ) then I’m obeying what God tells me, it’s not that I have all the answers, I would never say that, however, God is real, Jesus Christ is real and alive, and by my faith in God who loved me and gave His life for me (Galatians 2:20) I will continue to hold on to my faith even if everyone thinks I’m a fool…you I can tell are a learned woman, and you want facts, the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 1:18-25, that faith serves no good purpose to those like you who is seeking God by this worlds wisdom, that’s why this whole existence is based on faith in God, that’s why Jesus said to Nicodemus, to enter the Kingdom of God, you must be born again ( John 3:3 ) Nan,
                      Even if you don’t believe please get a Bible just humor me and read 1 Corinthians 1 ( the whole chapter )and if your really daring, read John 3:1-20, and ask this question “is Jesus a liar, lunatic, or Lord?” Both passages will take you 15 minutes tops,
                      Chat soon,
                      Dave

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                    55. This comment is the most frustrating one you’ve offered thus far! Do you think I don’t know bible scriptures? Do you think ANY person commenting on Gary’s blog doesn’t know bible scripture? Further, to continue to offer “testimony” of your faith has absolutely NO EFFECT on those of us who have “been there, done that.”

                      If you really want to contribute something, provide some straight answers to Ark’s questions.

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                    56. did I give you what you wanted ? did I answer Arks question(s)…since you know the Bible, I didn’t think of using the last tools I just sent…I’m praying that the Holy Spirit will convict you and your friends ( even the Lion ) of your sins, and repent

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                    57. Have you ever considered that people with disabilities, mental or physical is evidence that god is perhaps not all good? That a good and powerful god would allow this when it is able to prevent it and achieve the same purpose some other way is put forward by some as evidence either of no god or a god that is not all good and all powerful.

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                    58. okay belief in God, does not start with man, man is religious by nature, they want to figure out why they are alive, you and your friend epicurus, still want me to chat with you, so there is an interest in the fact, “maybe there is a God ?” or your wanting to me to be shot down in flames, and you stand right in your estimation. you men are too smart for that, I mean your not that petty that you dismiss me as a fly in your day, and the epitelmology term, is for me, and I will come back around, so…lets get started

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                    59. I’ll respond to other question later,
                      But man is religious is assumption ?? Really Gary, you have a belief to yourself that what you perceive is truth, is an religion to yourself, you decide what is true and false, so you are comfortable in your life, that if I may say your trying to have peace somehow ?? No, your religious

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                    60. Just because you converted to Christianity during an emotional crises…and then saw your emotional state improve…does not mean that everyone else in the world is walking around depressed and in a state of emotional despair. How many of your friends are atheists? Do you know any? I suggest you step out of your Christian bubble. There are a lot of happy people out there who don’t believe in ghosts, gods, and other ghouls.

                      Please give us the circumstances of your conversion to Christianity, including your age.

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                    61. ok, do I know any athesists, lol hmmm, let see yeah about 7 or 8 including my boss, who a flaming homosexual ! ( she ) hmm lets see I came to Jesus, well wait, correctly Biblically, it was God who called me out of darkness when I was 18 a senior in High school, thats was in 1983, and I’m 57…so I’ve been around the block including facing many people like you and your friends, and I can go on, but this does nothing for this conversation, except your still in your sins and if you died tonight, you will know the truth ! and you will have no hope, so how do you not think for a second that there is a God who made you, loves you and wants nothing more to say honestly, you don’t understand but I believe in you…again Gary, it comes to Faith…Faith in God the Lord Jesus Christ, lastly, I don’t understand things the Lord does, but guess what, I didn’t create myself, I was created, and for a purpose…lastly, if you live in the USA, we all live in a bubble, and soon it’s going to pop, and where then are you going to turn to ? I have friends live in other countries, man, lock downs and the rights taking away, it’s nuts…so the bubble reference, your in the same bubble friend

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                    62. I don’t think we are accomplishing anything, Dave. You want to talk about faith and I want to talk about objective evidence and reason. Our very differing views on how best to evaluate truth claims makes further discussion pointless. Best wishes to you!

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                    63. Wait Gary, did you even comprehend Huxley’s definition ? You said that you agreed with statements as being agnostic, so now I wrote to you what I think he’s mistaken, and you balk at the thought you have think outside of what you think ?I’m asking you for your answer of his first criteria ??
                      You have given zero thought to my response ??

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                    64. if you died tonight, you will know the truth ! and you will have no hope

                      Wrong. If I died tonight, I would be dead. The energy that made up my “life” would be re-absorbed into the universe. But you’re right … I have no “hope” because I fully recognize that death is final. To go through this life in a dream state believing that some kind of eternal life (?) awaits is just that … a dream (def: a cherished desire; Imaginative thoughts indulged in while awake; A fantastic but vain hope).

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                    65. To the first question … Absolutely!
                      To the second question … The value of life is unique to each individual.

                      To focus on “after-death” events is, IMO, a terrible waste of THIS life.

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                    66. Ok let’s talk about that, Solomon the ancient king of Israel, David’s son, said it’s better to be at funerals than parties ? Why, you get a reminder how fleeting this existence here on earth is, you gain perspective on what is really important

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                    67. CAG … we can’t “talk about that” because you use the bible as your source document … and I see no validity to its contents.

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                    68. No, Solomon’s grave is in Israel today, look it up!! Solomon body ( what’s left of it ) Solomon, is a real person and we have his remain as such proof

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                    69. Nan
                      Secular site ( sci-news) also have found that Kings David and Solomon existed, there are non biblical publications to ratify the claims of the Bible..,

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                    70. It’s entirely possible that various events in the bible are valid and/or individuals may have existed. Nonetheless, what I reject is the bible message in its entirety … not singular events that may or may not be true.

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                    71. Nan
                      cool, I can live with that, but; you then have to agree that if one point of the Bible is true there must be others ? what do you do when disagree at one point of the Bible and agree, when the Bible author is the same ?

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                    72. I emphasized “possible” for a reason. It means “capable of happening.” It does not necessarily mean I believe it DID happen or the various biblical personalities did, in fact, exist.

                      Further, I repeat … “what I reject is the bible message in its entirety.” Thus, there are no “points” to discuss.

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                    73. so my question on being agnostic, “when do you become agnostic about a particular truth claim ? since you refute anything that has a truth to it, so when do flip the switch and believe ?

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                    74. When there is sufficient evidence to justify belief. Again, I strongly encourage you to investigate the principles of Critical Thinking.

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                    75. okay you said you are in agreement with Huxley his thought on being agnostic…so I do have a problem with Huxley’s first thought, remember he had three reasons of him and if I may add yourself being agnostic…The writers of the New Testament never state that their beliefs were based on hearsay or were events that could not be authenticated. Quite the opposite, as apostles such as Peter, say, “For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty” (2 Peter 1:16). The disciples recorded occurrences that happened in actual space/time, saw these events with their own eyes, and recorded Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection so that others would know the truth of what happened. In terms of falsification, the apostle Paul gave the enemies of Christianity a single truth claim that, if proven untrue, would crumble and destroy Christianity in an instant: “But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain” (1 Corinthians 15:13–14). Paul says if the resurrection of Christ did not occur, then the Christian faith is literally “empty” (vain). That, Paul says, is how Christianity can be falsified: find the body of that Jewish carpenter and the Christian faith is undone.

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                    76. epricurus and I are going to see how the Bible is accurate and by proofs, so stay tuned, but alas, I need to spend time with my wife, and get my disabled 37 year old daughter to bed, goodnight friends…lord willing we will chat in the morrow,
                      Dave

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                    77. I checked out your blog, Your Nov 1 post saying we are persecuting you is insulting. If you think discussing topics and having disagreements is persecution you have lead a pretty sheltered life.

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                    78. That’s great !! You read my blog, read more of it, you get a sense how small I am, and how great God is!! And if your insulted that I tell the truth, because you think I’m wrong in my faith, hmmm, and a sheltered life, nah I had it bad growing up but that’s a discussion for another day, lastly in the Bible Jesus says not everybody will hear you, if they persecuted me they will persecute you, but now the ball is in your court if you really want to know the truth?!
                      Chat soon
                      Dave

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  7. Nan, epicurus, and Gary,
    after reading my blog, and praying about what I wrote, I now understand why you 3 are where you are regarding Jesus and those who claim to know Him, your being who you are and I am not accepting you just as you are, Jesus accepts me where I am…so I’m sorry I offended you, and I want to keep our communication open, I am learning a lot from you 3…
    sincerely, ”
    Dave

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  8. @ Chatting about god (Dave)

    I read this line you wrote on you blog.

    lastly we love working with adults with cognitive difficulties.

    If I may quote something from your bible you may be familar with?

    ”Physician, heal thyself.”..

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