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My name is ______. I’ve been reading your articles recently. I’ve been struggling with liberal Christians still believing the resurrection occurred even though they think genesis 1-11 is metaphor. I don’t really see the reason for him being god if original sin doesn’t matter.
I have to be patient with myself, but I still get nervous about hell because I feel like spirits and ghosts could exist. Especially when ppl who’ve had near death experiences report info that they shouldn’t know.
Then, you have liberals saying that Licona and Habermas arguments are great and helps them keep their faith.
I’ve been reading your articles on Bauckham because I keep wondering if witnesses of the resurrection really kept up with the oral tradition. Then, whatever Paul experienced must’ve been real for him to change his life and be a Christian ambassador.
Lastly, have you heard of David Rohl? I heard about him finding Jacob’s house lol.
Thanks,
X
Gary: You are correct, no one needs a savior if the Garden of Eden Story is allegory (fiction). If The Story of Original Sin is fiction, we humans are not born infected by sin. If we are not born infected with sin, why do we need a Savior? Moderate Christians will say that we still need a Savior because we all sin. But since Christians cannot prove to me that human beings have the capability of being perfect, this argument doesn’t work. You can’t judge people for not being perfect if they are incapable of being perfect.
Nope, you don’t need a savior, my friend.
Here is a comment I found on the internet on this topic which you might find helpful:
I have written about this several times on here. It’s true that almost all western Christian theologians and ministers, and certainly the heads of the major churches (including the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury) believe in human evolution.
But I wrote that I find this incongruous. The problem is not so much that the Bible says that humans were created ex nihilo but that, as you say, it makes a mockery of the idea of original sin, and therefore salvation. St Paul makes a very big deal in his exegesis, of Jesus as the “second Adam” and tells us that just as sin and death came into the world through the first Adam, so salvation comes through Jesus, the second Adam. Even without the ramblings of Paul, systematic theology has long taught that.
Also, it’s Christianity’s answer to the “Problem of Evil”. Christianity has traditionally taught that God designed the world perfect, but that it all fell apart because of Adam and Eve’s sin.
This is, of course, a rather unsatisfactory explanation. Why should aardvarks and agapanthuses be subject to death and decay because of something that two humans did thousands of years ago? And so many other things that make no sense. But at least it was an attempt.
But with evolution, humans were not the first animals. And evolution relies on natural selection, on the Malthusian Trap. So it is an unimaginably cruel process. Evolution only works because most individuals die before they ever get a chance to breed. Even more problematically, in evolution there is no first person. So you can’t even say that non-human suffering doesn’t matter, because whoever you think Adam and Eve were, if you believe in evolution, if Adam and Eve were human, their parents were human too!
This is one of the reasons I became an atheist.
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End of post.
“Christianity has traditionally taught that God designed the world perfect, but that it all fell apart because of Adam and Eve’s sin.“
This is the part of the story that I can’t wrap my head around. God, creating the world perfect, wouldn’t allow for it fall apart by the actions of two individuals. So clearly the world wasn’t created perfect, which means God created something imperfect, which seems like something that an all knowing, all powerful, being shouldn’t be able to do. The story isn’t coherent, which means that Christianity is false.
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True, but that doesn’t stop apologists from inventing some very clever excuses for why we still need Jesus.
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Wait a second, Gary. Are you really suggesting that if Genesis 2-3 isn’t historical–if it is a myth–then that means human beings aren’t sinful? You really think there is nothing wrong with human beings, and that we are all just perfect and good?
And Harold, what you said flies in the face of most Church Fathers. They argue that the only one who is perfect is, by definition, God. Therefore, His creation, CANNOT be perfect–and human beings CANNOT be perfect–because they aren’t God.
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Hi Joel.
Do you believe it is possible for a human being to choose to be perfect his or her entire life?
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You’re a smart guy, Joel . You know it is impossible for humans to be perfect. So if your god knows it is impossible for any human to be perfect why does he judge us for something we have no control over? We can try to be better, but we can never be perfect.
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Of course not. Human beings aren’t perfect. They make bad choices all the time. That’s the point of the Adam and Eve story. Just because Adam and Eve weren’t historical people doesn’t change that fact. And that fact is the reason Christ came–to redeem sinful people.
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So if humans are incapable of being perfect why do we need to be redeemed? No living creature can be perfect so why is it that only humans need a savior?
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Because we’re sinful and succumb to death. Salvation is a salvation from sin and death.
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But why don’t other living creatures need a savior? Lions kill the offspring (cubs) of the male lion whom they just defeated for control of the pride. Why don’t lions need a savior for their “sinful” actions? What is it about humans that requires that of all living creatures, only they need a savior?
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We are created in God’s image. We share biology with other creatures but are unique. But you are exactly right. We don’t accuse lions of “murdering” their offspring, but we do accuse human beings of murder. Right there, we acknowledge that there is something innately different about human beings.
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We humans are created in God’s image? At what point in human evolution were we “created” in God’s image?
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The Bible doesn’t pinpoint it for us, does it? Still, it is clear, human beings are created in God’s image–and thus are uniquely different from all other biological life.
Again, the fact we hold human beings to some semblance of morality and not any other animal points to that fact that we are unique.
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Still, it is clear, human beings are created in God’s image
Humans are certainly very intelligent but why must we assume that this is because we were created in a god’s image? Isn’t it possible that we are “special” due to other evolutionary factors? Many scientists seem to think so. In addition, the fact that humans have rules of behavior (morality) is not unique. Many mammalian societies have complex rules of behavior (wolves, lions, elephants, etc..).
And you are making a big assumption. Even if we humans were created in a god’s image, that does not mean that we need a savior.
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According to Christianity it does. We are created in God’s image, but are still sinful and are under the power of death. We all will die. Salvation in Christ entails those who put their faith in Him will conquer death, just as Christ did, and be transformed into creatures that don’t just bear God’s image, but actually become like Him and share in the Divine life that overcomes death.
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So, at some point in time in human evolution your god said “Ok, now you guys look like me”. So since you look like me, I’m going to make you special. I’m going to give you something called a conscience and something called morality, I’m also going to give you the opportunity to live forever after death in an adult version of Never Neverland. All you have to do is sincerely apologize for not being perfect (even though I made you incapable of being perfect), believe in me even though I am invisible and refuse to prove my existence when asked, and worship me each and every day.
And you ask us to believe all this based on the fact that humans are “special”?
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(Sigh)…I thought you wanted to have serious conversations. When you intentionally mock something by throwing out a childish caricature, you show you just want to stick with childish foodfights.
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What is heaven like, then? Is there any sorrow or pain in heaven? If there is no sorrow and no pain, that is like nothing on earth. It would truly be an adult “Never Neverland”. There is no insult intended.
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The great hope is for human beings to live in resurrected bodies on the new earth. It isn’t to live as spirits in your childish “Neverland” caricature. Lol
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…and that is the ultimate “Good News” of the Gospel: those who put their faith in Christ will overcome death and corruption.
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It sounds wonderful to live forever.
What is the evidence that it is possible for humans to live forever?
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The evidence: Christ rose from the dead. He defeated death. That’s the Good News.
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What evidence is there to demonstrate the veracity of the claim that the character Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead?
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Yes, that is what it all comes down to for most Christians, doesn’t it, Ark? But even if Jesus was seen again after his death (whether by natural or supernatural means) that in no way proves that Jesus is the creator of our universe. What is the evidence that Jesus of Nazareth is the creator of four million years of horrific suffering and death? What is the evidence that Jesus is responsible for the indifferent, merciless process known as “evolution”?
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We’re not getting into this again. I’ll give the standard answers and you’ll just say “nu-uh.” Lol
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Then can we at leat agree that your reasons are based on faith and not evidence?
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Nope. Based on testimony.
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There is no evidence of testimony so I don’t understand what you are referring to?
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Sure there is. The entire NT.
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As the gospels are anonymous, as well as suffering from plagiarism and riddled with error what evidence do you have to demonstrate this is testimony?
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Ok…(does it ever occur to you that so many times, I tell you ahead of time, “This is what you’re going to do,” and then you proceed to do just that? Hahaha)
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Does it ever occur to you that you respond the way you do because you are indoctrinated, know that you have no evidence and thus you have no other response?
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Nope…that never occurs to me.
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And you can’t even see the irony in your response?
Well then, why not provide evidence to demonstrate you claim the NT is testimony?
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We’ve danced this dance before. Not interested.
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As before, since you have no evidence to offer, then this time around the dance floor we can only conclude your dancing technique has still not advanced beyond the theological two-step?
Indoctrination and faith it is, then.
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Yep…keep telling yourself that.
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Oh, not just me, Joel, everyone who has an ounce of common sense, integrity and is not indoctrinated up the wazoo.
Maybe Gary could write to your old varsity?
There might very well be grounds for you to get at least a partial refund.
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Haha…well Gary, we’ve figured out who the Agent Zero of childishness on your blog is! Hahaha
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If Ark (or anyone else) engages in personal insults, ignore him and I will delete the comment. So far, I don’t see any personal insults.
Let’s keep this conversation civil, everyone.
Can’t you see, Joel, that your entire world view depends upon the veracity of two thousand year old hearsay? Yes, hearsay. Christians cannot provide even one undisputed eyewitness testimony of anyone claiming to have seen a walking, talking resurrected body.
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You are responding to my reply yet addressing Gary?
But yes, it isn’t difficult to figure out the ‘child’ in our midst.
And you still haven’t managed to bring your manic “Hahaha” under control, I see.
Out of interest, do you think you will ever be honest enough to acknowledge the foundation of your Christian worldview is built entirely upon faith, or are you simply too afraid to even question it?
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So the fact that some people claimed to see Jesus after his execution and burial is proof that he is the creator of the universe? How do you make that jump?
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No, it proves he conquered death.
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Let’s go back to this statement: Because we’re sinful and succumb to death. Salvation is a salvation from sin and death.
Why would your god create beings, requiring them to behave perfectly when he made them incapable of being perfect? It is as if he set them up to fail: I know you can’t be perfect but if you are not perfect I will condemn you to some type of punishment unless you worship me and ask for my forgiveness for not being perfect. Isn’t that sadistic?
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Where are you getting this idea of “perfect” and “behaving perfectly” from? Read my posts on Irenaeus and his take on the Adam and Eve story, and you’ll get a better understanding how the early Church Fathers explained it.
If I can simply it for this thread, I’d put it this way:
1. THIS creation, and the current state of human beings within the natural world, is “phase one.” We are created beings in the process of “becoming” (a Greek philosophical idea).
Within this natural world, we sin and succumb to death–everything in the natural world succumbs to death, because it’s not the intended “final result.”
Through Christ, God “injects,” if you will, His divine life into those who put their faith in Christ, and that divine life works outward, transforming mere natural beings into beings who share in the divine life.
The new heavens and new earth are “phase two”–and this natural world (“phase one”) is the workshop in which God is in the process of creating creatures who share in the divine life.
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Within this natural world, we sin and succumb to death–everything in the natural world succumbs to death, because it’s not the intended “final result.”
Let’s take a look again at the diagram of human evolution: Human Evolution Your god has spent four million years perfecting his creation and during that four million years billions of creatures, including millions if not billions of humans, have experienced the most horrific suffering and death. Isn’t that terribly cruel and sadistic, Joel? How can you “love” such a being?
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Do you really have a sense of horror when you see a wilted flower or dead lion in the Sahara?
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Well, your version of Christianity is certainly much more appealing than that of more conservative Christians. I’ll admit that. Your version promises a pleasant afterlife in exchange for nothing more than a heartfelt conversion to your belief system. And if you refuse to convert, you die and that is it.
But where is the evidence that this belief is true? The alleged sightings of a man returned from the grave 2,000 years ago? Is that it? You have no other evidence that your god exists today, that he is the creator of the universe, and that he offers eternal life for those who place their “faith” in him?
That is not strong evidence, Joel. Surely you see that. Your belief is based on extremely weak evidence, so weak that it is truly “a leap”.
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Human evolution
Where in this long line of ancestors were we first made in God’s image?
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By the way, you should buy my new book:
https://amzn.to/43NAT9f
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“He provides a brief explanation of the time of writing and authorship of each book, as is generally accepted in both biblical scholarship and Church tradition.”
So you tell the reader the gospels are anonymous but the church erroneously asserts they are written by Mark Matthew Luke and John?
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How do you know the Church’s assertion is erroneous?
In any case, M,M,L were all written somewhere between 60-80 AD. All agree they reflect the first generation testimony and proclamation.
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You have no idea if the Gospels reflect the views of the original Twelve. We do not have their undisputed testimonies. All we have are four anonymous books written at least 3 decades after the alleged events, two and possibly three of which had access to the first author’s material. Not exactly independent sources.
Admit it, Joel. If any other religion or belief system had such poor evidence to back their claims, you would not give it a second of your time. So why are you so deeply attached to this poorly evidenced ancient tale? Are there personal reasons why you choose to believe this story?
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They reflect the proclamation and testimony of the first generation Church.
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In other words, the Gospels reflect the testimony of the first circa 25-30 years of the Church. I’ll buy that. Why should we believe that the teachings and stories of this first century sect are more trustworthy and true than the teachings and stories of all the other thousands of religious sects that humans have invented over the last 100,000 or so years of our existence? Why is this one sect correct and all the other thousands of sects wrong?
So far, Joel, the only evidence you have given that your god is the creator of our universe and that we need him as a savior is the “uniqueness” of human beings and alleged sightings of a returned from the dead first century religious leader. Is that all you have?
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That’s up to you to wrestle with and figure out.
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Were you replying to this comment: So far, Joel, the only evidence you have given that your god is the creator of our universe and that we need him as a savior is the “uniqueness” of human beings and alleged sightings of a returned from the dead first century religious leader. Is that all you have?
Why would any university educated person “wrestle” with such poor evidence, Joel? The uniqueness of human beings and rumors/hearsay from the first century are not sufficient evidence for most educated non-Christians to take Christianity’s supernatural claims seriously. So why does someone as intelligent as you believe them?
Do you believe that the resurrected Jesus communicates with you personally or grants your wish requests (prayers)?
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Gary, you do with the Gospels whatever you want. But it is clear to me that you routinely go out of your way to depict Christianity and the Bible in the most absurdly infantile caricature you can possibly come up with for the sole purpose of avoiding truly wrestling with it all.
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Do you or do you not believe that the three day brain-dead (truly dead) corpse of a first century man came back to life and appeared to his friends and family, and, that this back-from-the dead man is our creator and lord? That is your key belief, is it not? If so, it is a factual assessment, not a childish caricature.
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YEP… Jesus really died, really was buried, and really resurrected from the dead.
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This is a belief butvis not based on any evidence
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It is a belief rooted in the testimony of the early Church.
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Most modern, educated people are not going to believe a modern back-from-the-dead story without some very convincing evidence. Rumor and hearsay are not going to cut it. Why should we hold the Jesus Story to a lesser standard, Joel?
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Dear Readers: You don’t need a savior. You don’t need anyone to redeem you. Gods, devils, ghosts, and other invisible ghouls only exist in the minds of the superstitious. Live life to the fullest. Show kindness to others, not to please a god, but because if everyone follows this advice the world will be much more pleasant for everyone, including yourself.
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Without any evidence to support it.
In other words, in all probability made up.
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Again, I ask. Do you accept the fact the gospels are anonymous? ( authors unknown?)
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Also, still. Waiting for a reply to my question regarding Jesus’s belief that Moses ( and by extension, the Exodus) was a genuine historical figure, as portrayed in the Pentateuch.
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People who believe that a ghost is their best friend, a best friend who fulfills their wish requests, heals them from illnesses, spares their lives in auto accidents, and communicates with them in a still, small voice will NEVER stop believing in their ghost due to historical evidence. They will never stop believing in their ghost until the day they realize that no one is communicating with them in an inaudible voice; no one lives inside of them…except themselves.
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What always seems a bit amazing to me is that most people who claim to hear an “inaudible voice” are shuffled off to a psychiatrist. Yet the folks you’re talking about claim it’s A-OK. I wonder what the difference is?
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Yes, I know you sincerely believe that but can you admit that the evidence for this alleged event is poor?
If someone today claimed that the executed leader of their religious sect has come back from the dead and recently appeared to him/her and to a couple groups of friends, what evidence would you require to believe this claim? Would you accept hearsay as sufficient or would you insist on reviewing undisputed, corroborating, independent, testimony from multiple alleged eyewitnesses? Most educated people today would insist on the latter.
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No, I won’t admit that. Again, I believe we’ve had this discussion years ago, and you absolutely refused to answer what I’m about to ask: “What kind of evidence would you consider valid?”
All things considered, I find the evidence compelling.
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Probably the same evidence you would require to believe someone today claiming that the executed leader of his/her religious sect has come back from the dead and recently appeared to him/her and to a couple groups of friends.
Does the resurrected Jesus communicate with you personally in any way, shape, or form, Joel?
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And your “proof” is based on a story that was written over 2,000 years ago … and which, to this day, has STILL not been demonstrated (or accepted) as being totally authentic. Amazing the things we cling to …
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Yep
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Oh dear..
Are you truly going to defend the traditional view that the gospel authors really were MMLJ?
I hope this is not the ‘scholarly’ ( sic) position you adopt in your new book, for goodness’ sake?
And you are opting for the early dating as well and using the gospels to ‘prove’ the gospels?
How very scholarly of you.
🤦
Why don’t you try to get your publisher to arrange a debate with someone such as Ehrman on your NT views?
I’d pay money to watch/listen to that any day of the week.
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He would be backed in a corner and have to admit much of what he says is pure speculative conjecture.
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😄😅😂🤣🤣❗
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Now that is hubris of the highest order.
By the sound of it you hold similar views of the gospels as Mike Licona and such like, yes? ( Habermas, Turek, etc)
Licona appeared to be almost on the verge of tears in one of his debates with Ehrman while trying to defend the authorship argument.
What makes you think tou would fare any better?
By the way, you did not respond to the fact Jesus considered the Moses ( and by extension, Exodus) to be an actual historical event.
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I will bet good money that Joel, like the majority of evangelical Christians, had a “Jesus experience” (emotional conversion) when he was a young child and this is a major factor why he believes Christianity’s supernatural claims.
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No, it is simple facts. Erhman claims that the original stories changed dramatically in the 30-40 years between Jesus’ crucifixion and the writing of MML. Okay, what evidence can one point to in order to validate that claim? There simply is none. That is a 100% speculation that is not actually supported by any evidence. When it comes to theblife of Jesus, the earliest stuff we have are the Gospels. We have nothing before that. If one argues there were changes BEFORE the Gospels, one will have to point to something concrete to prove that assertion. But there is nothing–period–before the Gospels.
If you point to Paul’s writings, the one thing about Jesus’ life that he actually does refer a number of times to is his resurrection and post resurrection appearances.
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What does Ehrman specifically assert about these changes?
Are you denying that whoever wrote Matthew and Luke did not use Mark as the template for their own gospels?
Much of Matthew is plagiarized from Mark, some of it verbatim.
Are you asserting the gospels were actually written by the titles assigned them?
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I’m saying that MML reflect the testimony of the first generation Church, and I have no reason to doubt that what we read in MML is, in fact, what the first century Christians proclaimed.
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To clarify.
Only gMark may be a reflection of any so called testimony as the unknown authors of gMatthew and gLuke simply plagiarized from gMark and added their own spin.
Do you acknowledge the gospels are anonymous?
What ‘Church’ are you referring to?
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I’m referring to the first generation Christians who accepted the teaching of the Apostles.
Your take on MML is just unscholarly and wrong. The BEST one can say is that Matthew and Luke borrowed significant portions from Mark and then contributed further early information about Jesus from the first generation Church. In any case, everything in MML come from that first generation Church.
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What apostles?
Nonsense!
Have you ever read the gospels?
For goodness sake about 80 percent of Mathew is lifted directly from Mark, some of the wording is verbatim.
Seriously, what the hell did you learn when you studied this?
What evidence can you present to demonstrate a single shred of your last sentence?
You are now sounding like an indoctrinated fundamentalist.
Ehrman or any critical Bible scholar would chew you up and spit you out in five minutes of you were to parade this nonsense.
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@joel.
As Adam and Eve were not real people, and neither was Noah or Moses for that matter, why do you think Jesus presumed they were?
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You’re right concerning Adam, Eve, and Noah.
I have no idea what Jesus thought about them. I would guess that since Genesis 1-11 is in the literary genre of myth, and since myth isn’t history, and since Jesus was an intelligent Jew, he interpreted Genesis 1-11 according to its genre.
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Wonderful. We are having a serious conversation about a serious issue (without personal insults). I hope that will continue.
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If he knew Adam and Eve were made up then original sin is a fallacy and this would mean there is no need of a savior.
Furthermore, he also considered Moses was a real character when this also not the case.
Is it possible that he was simply a man and had no idea that, like Adam and Eve and Noah, the Exodus was a myth?
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Discussions/arguments like this just make me shake my head in wonderment. That people actually believe (and defend) bible stories that are so obviously nothing more than the attempt by early (and even modern) humans to “explain” their existence is mind-boggling.
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I guess if people want to base their lives on the ‘testimony’ of a few folks from 2,000 years ago who had visions of an itinerant preacher who died, visions that are reported 3rd, 4th… 10th hand (apart from that of the one and only eye-witness, which is how we know we’re dealing with visions), then that’s up to them.
Perhaps though such people are not in a position to tell the rest of us we’re not taking these unconvincing stories as seriously as they think we should.
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True. Very true.
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