Why Does Tacitus Incorrectly Refer To Pilate As A Procurator?

But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor [Nero], and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration [the Great Fire of Rome, July 18, 64 CE] was the result of an order [by Nero]. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their 

CHRISTIANS ACCUSED OF INCENDIARISM
centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

–Tacitus in Annals, Book 15, section 44

Gary: Tacitus (c 55 – c. 120 CE) was a Roman historian and politician. He became governor of a province in western Asia Minor in 113 CE. Christian apologists often appeal to the above brief mention of a “Chrestus” in Tacitus’ work, The Annals, as confirmation of the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth and the historical reliability of the Gospels.

Michael Alter, Jewish author and counter-apologist: [Evangelical Christian apologists] Habermas and Licona cite Tacitus in support of Jesus’ resurrection. [This] excerpt requires careful, critical, and assiduous analysis from those of both sides of the religious aisle.

The academic debate surrounding this passage has mainly concerned two issues. First, what were the sources of Tacitus’ information? Second, questions exist about its authorship. Some detractors argue that 15:44 is a [Christian] interpolation. Consequently, they question its reliability.

-[Tacitus’] mistake in calling Pilate a procurator instead of a prefect shows that he is not directly citing any official record.

-Where would Tacitus have learned this [information]? It is very unlikely any such records would have survived in Rome for Tacitus to consult, the capitol’s libraries having been burned to the ground at least twice in the interim, once under Nero, and again under Titus.

[Gary: Is it nothing more than second century rumor and hearsay?]

-Tacitus refers to the founder as “Christus” while written records would presumably have used the name, Jesus. Why did Tacitus fail to use the personal name “Jesus”? [Gary: Sounds like a “Christianism”, to me, indicating this passage is another Christian Interpolation.]

-What witness outside Tacitus do we have to the persecution of Christians by Nero in association with the [Great] fire? There is none from Christian sources until the fourth century.

-The early Christian [Church] Fathers Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen did not cite Tacitus’ work. Neither do other Christian writers acquainted with Tacitus, such as Sidonius, Appolinaris, Sulpicius, Severus, and Cassiodorus. No one seems to have ever known that Christians were in any way connected with it [the Great Fire of 64 CE], until late in the fourth century.

-No historical evidence exists that Nero persecuted Christians. However, he did persecute Jews, so perhaps Tacitus was confused.

-Tacitus has in no other part of his writings alluded to Christ or Christians.

-The Annals is suspiciously [and conveniently?] missing information from 29 CE to 32 CE, a highly relevant timeframe for those who believe in Jesus. Professor of Classics Robert Drews theorized that the only plausible explanation for this gap is “pious fraud”; the embarrassment [to Christians and the Church] of Tacitus’ making no mention of Jesus’ crucifixion, or darkness covering the world, or appearances of resurrected saints, led to Christian scribes destroying this portion of the text—and perhaps later fabricating the Book 15 reference [above].

-Given the immensity of the persecution [inflicted on Christians by Nero] which Tacitus describes, what are the odds that no Christian [author] would ever have heard of it or made use of it or any reference to it for over three hundred years?

Conclusion: The end of the matter is that nobody knows with certitude the source of Tacitus’ presumed information. Noteworthy, it is unverified that Tacitus wrote the paragraph. Consequently, Annals is not an independent source that provides evidence that Jesus suffered crucifixion.

Excerpts from chapter 6, The Resurrection and Its Apologetics: Jesus’ Death and Burial, Volume 1 by Michael Alter

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

End of post.

219 thoughts on “Why Does Tacitus Incorrectly Refer To Pilate As A Procurator?

  1. I’m surprised you have abandoned your approach of accepting the scholarly consensus on this matter which is almost unanimously for authenticity. One reason which I thought you would mention given the title is that Tacitus calls pilate a procurator, the title used for governors of Judea when he wrote. The Christian sources correctly call him prefect. Also whilst I suppose the hostile tone could be a mark of a clever interpolator I think we would expect something more like the language of the passage in Josephus that was interpolated. The consensus on these matters is summarised by Tim O Neill at History for Atheists. He’s an atheist who got fed up of bad historical takes by Jesus mythicists and lays out the arguments that persuade non Christian scholars and the overwhelming consensus view that Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher crucified by Pilate. I perfectly sympathise with your experience of fundamentalism by the way but I think you were right first time about being guided to the consensus of (non Christian) scholars, though of course I don’t deny your right to question it.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Yes, I used to say that I accept consensus scholarly opinion on the Bible (with no caveat). I no longer hold that position.

      I now say that I accept expert consensus opinion on all issues…with one caveat. The experts in question must use universally accepted, standardized, science-based methods for reaching their consensus. I believe this is a very reasonable, rational caveat that most of the world’s university educated people would also demand.

      Do you accept the (overwhelmingly Mormon) Book of Mormon scholarly consensus? Or the (overwhelmingly Muslim) Koran scholarly consensus? I highly doubt it. So why ask me to accept the (overwhelmingly Christian) New Testament scholarly opinion?

      I am not a mythicist. The consensus of the world’s historians is that Jesus was a real person who was crucified in the first century. I accept as fact that consensus expert opinion.

      Like

      1. My bet is that Tacitus was merely repeating information (hearsay) which he had heard while governor in Asia Minor. As governor, it seems very likely that Christian prisoners were brought before him for interrogation. Is that where Tacitus learned about Christianity and its founder? I say, probably, but in reality, who knows?

        Like

        1. Thanks and I agree with your new position. That’s why Tim O Neill summarises the consensus of non Christian scholars. Which looks pretty similar to that of liberal Christian scholars (ie a lot of stuff is ahistorical) but different from those with a commitment to inerrancy which disqualifies them as impartial historians because of pre commitment to a conclusion. However the non Christian consensus on Tacitus and the second reference of Josephus is overwhelming for authenticity.

          But I think I understand you now, you think Jesus is legendary rather than mythical (?) and that indeed is the mainstream position.

          I do think you would enjoy Tim’s site. Most of his engagement is with mythicists but when inerrantists turn up he’s equally rude to them. He just interested in the history not agendas.

          Like

          1. Yes, I believe an apocalyptic Jewish messiah pretender with the name of Jesus appeared on the scene in first century Palestine. I doubt he was anything like the Jesus of the Gospels

            Liked by 1 person

            1. Thanks, yes that pretty standard scholarship. If you haven’t read my comment on the Josephus article you have already answered my questions about your position which is the logical one to take if one takes faith commitments out of the picture and focuses on the history.

              Like

          2. O’neill is a rabid anti mythicist, and like every Bible scholar or historian cannot provide a single piece of evidence to support a 1st century itinnerent apocolytic rabbi and merely parrots the ‘party line.’

            Like

            1. Like many mythicists you seem to be using evidence in the sense of proof. That’s not what evidence means. You can have valid evidence for the defence and prosecution in a trial even though only one side is right. Josephus and Tacitus are evidence. You can argue they are weak evidence and they don’t constitute proof. But they are certainly evidence.

              Like

              1. Thank you. I understand perfectly what evidence means and there is absolutely no evidence, contemporary or otherwise, including the highly dubious written claims by Josephus and Tacitus to demonstrate the veracity of the claim that the character Yeshua Ben Josef or Jesus of Nazareth ever walked the earth.

                Like

                1. You two obviously have a difference of opinion regarding the definition of the term “evidence”. In any conversation, the interlocuters must agree on the definitions of the terms used in the discussion. Without that agreement, the conversation is doomed to failure. So we need to agree on a definition for the word: evidence. Here is a dictionary definition:

                  evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

                  The statements in the extant writings of Tacitus and Josephus may be references to Jesus of Nazareth. They may also be later Christian interpolations (complete fabrications). The expert consensus may say that at least parts of these statements are authentic, but the consensus of experts can be wrong.
                  So what are we left with? Notice the above definition does not say that evidence must be “facts”. It may simply be information. So, the information possibly referring to Jesus of Nazareth in the writings of Tacitus and Josephus’ meets the definition above for “evidence”.

                  Can we all agree then on this definition of “evidence”?

                  Liked by 2 people

                  1. It states that the available body of info that indicates whether a belief or proposition ( a claim) is true or valid.

                    There is nothing I am aware of that would indicate the veracity of any claim regarding the character Jesus of Nazareth.

                    Like

                    1. Ok, so “evidence” is the available body of information that indicates whether a belief or proposition (claim) is true.

                      How then is the statement in Tacitus’ Annals about Chrestus being the founder of the Christian sect not evidence for the existence of a historical Jesus who started a movement of people who believe their leader was resurrected from the dead, celebrate his death by engaging in a cannibalistic ritual called a “Eucharist”, and refuse to renounce this god/man under penalty of death because they believe that martyrdom is infinitely better than life on earth in the flesh?

                      It might be an interpolation, but it might be an authentic statement by Tacitus. No one knows for sure. So it is information on the topic, therefore it is evidence.

                      Like

                2. Thank you for the Thank you as mythicists typically go straight to abuse. Highly dubious evidence is still evidence. That’s just how the term works and with respect either you don’t understand that, despite your claim to the contrary, or you use a different definition of evidence in this field only.

                  Conversing with mythicists reminds me a conversation between Richard Dawkins and a young earth creationist. Dawkins patiently laid out the evidence for evolution to which the YEC wailed “but there is no evidence”. Dawkins replied “Well what I’ve just laid out is what scientists call evidence.”

                  What Tim O Neill lays out is what historians (not just Christian historians but agnostics atheists Jews Muslims etc) consider evidence. There are one or two with relevant qualifications, like Richard Carrier who think Jesus existence is improbable. But Carrier doesn’t say as you do that there is no evidence. He considers various data weak evidence of Jesus existence. He just holds that there are better arguments against Jesus existence. That’s how historians proceed.

                  Like

                  1. Evidence that cannot be demonstrated to have any veracity remains an unsupported claim.
                    There are quite a number of people who claim there is evidence the earth is flat.
                    But we both know such assertions are simply baseless claims.

                    I am aware of how Carrier interprets the available historical information.
                    I however, do not have the benefit of his qualifications or extensive background knowledge on the subject, which makes me chuckle when obnoxious arsehats like O’Neil openly ridicule him.
                    However, as it seems you do believe the character Jesus of Nazareth did exist I. would be interested what evidence you consider verifies this claim.
                    ( And I presume at this point you are not alluding to the Lake Tiberius Pedestrian and instant vituculturist as portrayed in the anonymous gospels?)

                    Like

                    1. I actually believe in the Jesus of the gospels, more or less. though not for example Luke’s story about the census of Quirinius. But I don’t think there is enough historical evidence for the Gospel claims.

                      I think the historical evidence does support a preacher crucified by Pilate and the evidence for that is laid out in Tim’s blog. As for flat earth, I think there is probably evidence for that and for geocentrism and a bunch of other kooky stuff. The point is it’s evidence that doesn’t begin to rise to the level of proof and is outweighed by much better evidence for a round earth and heliocentrism.

                      See Gary’s definition of evidence above or even read Carrier again and see how he approaches evidence.

                      Like

                    2. Belief does not qualify as evidence.
                      That you believe the character as represented in the gospels has historical credibility merely illustrates the power of indictrination and very likely your inability to exercise genuine critical thought on the matter.
                      The dictionary definition of evidence that Gary uses echos what I wrote.
                      Ergo, if you cannot demonstrate the veracity of a claim it remains that… A claim.
                      You might as well claim that Jk Rowling’s description of Harry Potter flying around on a broomstick is evidence.
                      Furthermore, if you are seriously asserting there is evidence for a flat earth then you truly have no credibility whatsoever and would be advised to excuse yourself.

                      Like

                    3. If a document is found in the papers of an American military officer which states that the US military shot down Amelia Earhart’s plane, that document is evidence of the cause of her disappearance until it is proven the document is a fraud. Ditto for the statements about Chrestus/Jesus in the writings of Tacitus and Josephus.

                      The document mentioning the cause of Earhart’s disappearance does not prove this is what happened but it is information about her disappearance and by our definition above, that makes it evidence.

                      Liked by 1 person

                    4. If a separate document was found that asserted another military officer saw a silver dish appear from within a bank of low lying clouds and shot down Earhart’s plane with what appeared to be a laser beam this too is simply evidence of a claim.
                      It is NOT evidence of the veracity of said claim unless it can be substantiated. Which is what the dictionary definition outlines.

                      Like

                    5. Is it possible for a character in an ancient document to be historical even though 90% of the stories told about him or her in that document are supernatural tall tales?

                      Like

                    6. Yes, it is possible.
                      It is also possible the character is a work of fiction created for geopolitical reasons.
                      Moses would be a good comparison.

                      Like

                    7. Is it possible for a character in an ancient document to be historical even though 90% of the stories told about him or her in that document are supernatural tall tales?

                      “Yes, it is possible.”

                      Good. But these stories are still information about a possible historical character, and by our agreed upon definition, it is therefore evidence.

                      Like

                    8. Rowling declares herself a novelist. Tacitus declares himself a historian, and much of what he said is confirmed by other historians and physical evidence. Do say no ancient histories are evidence? What about inscriptions? Does it make a difference if a claim is inscribed on stone or bronze rather than papyrus? Why do you think no historian agrees that ancient histories aren’t evidence? What do you know that they don’t? You haven’t shared any reason why we should depart from the methods of historians and follow yours instead.

                      Like

                    9. You are likely not that familiar with much ancient history or those who wrote it, and why, and you don’t seem that families with the writings of Tacitus or the history behind his works.

                      Evidence, yes. Evidence of the veracity of the claims they make? Not necessarily.
                      Thus until orvunlrss such claim can be supported they remain claims

                      Foe example:The Bible is claimed to be the inspired word of your god, Yahweh, but almost all of it is historical fiction and geopolitical foundation myth.
                      I sincerely hope you are not one of those Christians who believe in tales such as Adam and Eve the Noachian flood and the story of the Exodus?

                      Like

                    10. Not that it’s relevant but I’ve already said I believe in evolution so no exclusive ancestry from a single pair. No global flood because there is no convincing evidence and a huge amount against. I’m probably more familiar with Roman history than you. I could list all the emperors from Augustus to Romulus Augustulus in infant school.

                      But you still haven’t answered why you think every single historian takes ancient histories like Tacitus and Josephus (not the myths or plays or poems) as evidence. You are asking me and Gary to reject the historical method at least in part. But since you think you are so much more familiar than me with ancient history why not cite a historian who says that ancient histories are not evidence. Not that they can be unreliable or exaggerate numbers in battles etc but that they have zero evidential value by themselves. You can’t do it because even your favourite historian on this subject regards ancient histories as evidence.

                      Like

                    11. If you accept evolution and also acknowledge the tales of Adam and Eve, the Noachian Flood and Exodus are fiction and geopolitical foundation myth on what basis do you conclude the veracity of the tales of your god?

                      We are discussing two specific excerpts from Tacitus and Josephus.
                      Those particular passages are not universally regarded as historically accurate and thus your assertion is erroneous.

                      Furthermore, if you are going to ask me a question then provide your own answer it seems pointless for me to bother responding.

                      Liked by 1 person

                    12. you are changing the goal posts. I never said Tacitus or Josephus or the references are universally accepted as accurate, just that they are universally accepted as prima facie evidence. Where did I say the gospels are always accurate? They aren’t. As I said the census of Quirinius in Judea is impossible. There’s lots of other mistakes too.

                      Like

                    13. Btw primary school is UK is up to 11years. Im guessing you are in the US because you think every Christian is a right wing fundamentalist. It’s very different here. The reason I rejected the accusation of indoctrination is not because I wasn’t raised Christian but because I was raised in the Church of England where the typical sermon on a bible passage especially in the Old Testament is to explain why no educated person today can take it literally. You will be very hard pressed to find a fundamentalist Anglican. Just a bit of background so you don’t need to speculate.

                      Like

                    14. I was born in the UK and baptized c of e.
                      I now reside in South Africa.
                      Anyone in this day and age who considers they are a sinner in need of redemption via the blood of a supposed human sacrifice ( the character Jesus of Nazareth) has succumbed to a certain degree of indoctrination.

                      Like

                    15. Thanks. Btw I actually agree with the rejection of the idea Jesus had to suffer God’s wrath so God could forgive us. But I’m sure I believe a lot of other stuff you would still think silly. I get lots of abuse from Christians but it’s probably not as hard a furrow as being an atheist in Africa! Re indoctrination I have no doubt my background partially explains my beliefs but I think that’s true of everyone. I don’t believe a lot of what I was taught though.

                      Like

                    16. Why do you believe that the supernatural exists; specifically, what evidence is there that the supernatural operates in our world today?

                      Like

                    17. Thanks. Good question. I should clarify I’m a fideist. I don’t believe there are any compelling logical or evidential arguments for God’s existence. Not persuaded by modern miracle claims either. I don’t believe on the basis of evidence but of my experiences and my sense God is working in my life. But I fully accept that isn’t evidence that could persuade anyone and in fact I don’t seek to persuade anyone of my beliefs. I only came here to discuss history though I’m happy to talk of other topics.

                      Now I understand that one may define faith as belief on insufficient evidence. Another way of looking at it is as following a hunch. I’m following my hunch, that is my intuition. I’m not at all confident that I’m right. I’m essentially agnostic. So in short I don’t actually see any convincing evidence. I’m not making a knowledge claim here. The only place we differ I think is that we have different hunches.

                      Liked by 1 person

                    18. The only place we differ I think is that we have different hunches.

                      Let me give an analogy, and please don’t be insulted by it:

                      Is my hunch that unicorns do not exist (because there is no objective evidence that they do) more rational than your hunch that unicorns do exist (based on personal experiences and sense perceptions)?

                      Like

                    19. I would judge your hunch more rational than someone who had a hunch they existed. I don’t have that hunch. But to turn to my own hunch I guess yours is more rational because you aren’t asserting something you can’t show. But then that’s not really a hunch on your part because a hunch is believing something that you don’t have demonstrable evidence for on the basis of intuition. So the question for me is “is it irrational to follow a hunch?” I’m not insulted at all. It’s a great question.

                      Like

                    20. I would just encourage you to consider how reliable personal experiences and subjective feelings of interactions with an invisible, mute, being really are.

                      Stick around, my friend! I like your views. I would enjoy seeing you interact with Dr. Joel Anderson here in the comments. He is an Old Testament scholar, former evangelical turned Orthodox Christian. He teaches at a public college in the South. He can be difficult to pin down on issues. He does have attitude but is a good guy. Have a go with him!

                      Liked by 1 person

                    21. Sounds great. I don’t think my experiences are objective or reliable btw. That’s why I’m agnostic strictly speaking. It’s closer to a hope than a dogma.

                      Like

                    22. So I find I did address a comment to Joel asking if he believes in the “suppression thesis”. That non believers are just suppressing the truth. But he didn’t reply. I can’t accept the thesis because why can’t I get to confidence despite wanting to believe?

                      Like

                    23. Of course it doesn’t. The point of me asking was to try to understand how you can trust anything about the character Jesus of Nazareth when all information about him derives from the gospels, which of course were compiled and redacted by the very same Christian church of which you wisely exercise a healthy dose of skepticism.

                      Like

                    24. Well we differ about whether all information comes from the Gospels because of our differing views about Josephus and Tacitus but all information relevant to Christian faith is indeed derived from Christian sources. And it can’t be just taken as gospel so to speak. There are various criteria scholars use, eg some bits don’t really fit and were embarrassing (for example the baptism by John which implies John was greater) so are more credible. But ultimately I’m not so sure it matters. I doubt the sermon on the Mount is verbatim for example but it doesn’t make it a less good code to live by. And since I accept Jesus was sent by God on the basis of my intuitive response I’m inclined to think the essential gist of his message would have been preserved. But I can’t prove that any more than God’s existence.

                      Like

                    25. The information relevant to the Christian faith all derives from the gospels. Although I suppose one could include some of the epistles in this, but they suffer from fraud so reliability comes into question again.

                      As gMark is the only gospel of any real consequence, and the ending is tacked on( interpolation) the others having plagiarized from it, and all are anonymous it begs the question on what basis do you hold that Jesus was sent by Yahweh, and presumably you consider the character to be divine?

                      Would it be fair then to suggest reliability is not really that important or ‘your thing’ , as it were, and you prefer to go by feelings?

                      Like

                    26. So at greater length. I think a miracle claims in principle could have enough attestation to be declared probable. I’m not aware of any such claim. On the basis of the historical evidence alone the Resurrection is highly improbable. If on the basis of the same evidence I was asked to believe the bad thief crucified with Jesus rose I would reject it. But then I don’t have the perception of having a relationship with the bad thief. And his rising would not point to an answer to any problem so I would not find it intuitively plausible. Now just because I find the story of Jesus, stripped of evangelical baggage to be beautiful doesn’t make it true you may say. But there seems to be a connection between truth and beauty. Symmetry influences whether we think a face good looking. It also factors in to whether a scientific theory is likely to be true. It’s been found symmetrical theories are more likely to be confirmed. And I would say every beautiful story must contain some truth, even if non literal. I acknowledge it’s highly subjective and one persons beauty might be another person’s monstrosity.

                      Btw do I take it that having been baptised as Anglican you weren’t raised fundamentalist. Or were you raised Anglican and fundamentalist? That would be unusual.

                      Like

                    27. Cinderella is a beautiful story too but very unlikely to be true. It is beautiful because it tells of a poor, powerless, oppressed person overcoming the evil authority figures of her day to become Queen. Poor, powerless, oppressed people love those stories. It gives THEM hope.

                      And the same is true for the Jesus Story. Jesus ultimately defeats the evil authority figures of his day and becomes King of the Cosmos. But he offers much more than Cinderella. If you just believe in his magical powers and feel badly about your past misdeeds he will bestow on you a crown filled with jewels and a mansion of gold in an eternal, deliriously happy Never Neverland.

                      And that is why early Christianity grew like wildfire. The poor, oppressed, uneducated masses ate it up. It gave them hope.

                      Liked by 1 person

                    28. I think my initial reply may have disappeared into the ether…

                      That is a nice bit of prose but doesn’t get to the core of why you consider yourself to be a Christian.
                      Care to be more succinct?

                      No fundies in my family.
                      Straightforward old fashioned C of E.
                      One of the easiest Christians sects to walk away from.

                      Like

                    29. That was me trying to be succinct. To boil it down I believe because it’s resonates emotionally not on the basis of the empirical evidence. Which I don’t expect to persuade others. I’m not evangelical. I don’t believe I have to convert other people. Just to explain if asked to do so, as I have sought to here.

                      Yes, not only is it easy to leave the C of E you can even stay and not believe anything like a fair few vicars.

                      Like

                    30. Succinct? 😊 Oh well, thank goodness you didn’t offer the unexpurgated version.
                      I wonder what emotional issues you have that you feel the need to align with a fictional divine character such as Jesus of Nazareth?

                      Like

                    31. Lol! You nearly got the unexpurgated version but I thought you might get fatigue. I have all sorts of emotional issues like most people I think but, assuming I’m wrong, one doesn’t actually need such issues to be wrong. Tim O Neill assumes mythicists to be generally ex fundamentalists as I did with you. But you aren’t and Carrier isn’t. I think explaining why one thinks someone wrong is better than psychoanalising why they might be. But if you want one, I’m terrified of death. I couldn’t sleep without the light on till my 20s because darkness makes me think of non existence.

                      Like

                    32. Never was a believer in any sense of the word.
                      Ah, the Death Anxiety syndrome.
                      Francis Collins succumbed to this and it was instrumental in his conversion.

                      From my perspective I would imagine there are other ways to come to grips with an issue like this rather than throw your lot in with a likely fictional character called Jesus of Nazareth, in whom I cannot see any benefit whatsoever.
                      For what its worth vigorous exercise and gardening are great ways to cope with stress and you grow good for yourself and family. Not to be sniffed at when you consider the prices at the supermarket. Taste better too.
                      Much better than putting your hands together and indulging in self indulgent wishful thinking.

                      Like

                    33. Well the vegetables taste way better in Kenya than from the UK shops so I’d get tastier vegetables even if it didn’t cure the fear of death. I know people who say we didn’t know about it before we are born and won’t after death, but that doesn’t comfort me. It’s the very idea of not being aware any more that is what terrifies me.

                      Like

                    34. Then perhaos you need to talk with a professional? Such anxiety is not good in any sense and could cause some other unpleasent health issues if it hasn’t already. And it seems that Jesus isn’t helping much either.

                      Like

                    35. I have in fact had cognitive behavioural therapy and talking therapy. It helps with OCD but not the fear of death. Faith helps a little (I can sleep with the light off now) but it’s benefits are indeed limited as I’m agnostic ultimately. I would kind of like to have that confidence apologists claim to have (irritating as it may be to everyone else) but I just don’t see the evidence. William Lane Craig rejects the claim that miracles need a higher evidential bar but when he loses his car keys but could swear he had them ten minutes before I think he will consider even an unlikely naturalistic explanation before the notion that the devil has stolen his keys. Thanks for the practical advice though!.

                      Liked by 1 person

                    36. Well, you do what you gotta do, I suppose.
                      As Lennon once sang…
                      “Whatever gets you through the night…”

                      Like

                    37. Well fairies don’t make sense of anything that puzzles me and I haven’t had any experiences that lead me to believe in them. I do understand the fragility of my position though given the subjectivity and variety of religious experience. Have you ever taken psychedelics? If so did the perspective you had (eg the sense of unity of all things) affect your thinking afterwards or do you just regard it as chemical induced hallucination? I’m not saying it’s not hallucination but for my own part the experiences led me to think “there are more things in heaven and earth” etc.

                      Like

                    38. Never done drugs, other than addiction to nicotine( now over thank the gods).

                      Unfortunate you feel the need to deal with reality on such terms, but as I said before, whatever gets you through the night.

                      Like

                    39. Thanks. I suggest we leave it there until we clash again on another post as no doubt we will if we both keep commenting on this blog. Otherwise there is no natural stopping point. Best wishes and thanks for the engagement.

                      Liked by 1 person

                    40. There is an individual that frequents my blog (and also has his own) who had a psychedelic experience that left him with a certainty that the essence/spirit of who we are continues on. No religious belief involved. Just a certainty that the death of the body is not the end.

                      Like

                    41. Thank you. Yes it’s hard not to be affected by the perspective one gets whilst tripping because it’s seems more real than reality. Though I don’t do them now as I don’t want to mash what’s left of my brain. Is that the blog you linked to? If not can you leave a link. If it’s the same I will follow the link you left.

                      Like

                    42. If the two documents are not universally accepted as authentic, neither universally condemned as frauds, then they are evidence. Period.

                      Your definition of evidence is your own creation, Ark. Please accept the standard we have agreed upon or go away. I’m tired of your angry, hateful diatribes.

                      Like

                    43. While most people consider the tale of Noah to be myth there are quite a number of people who consider the bible passage describing the Noachian Flood as evidence of a global deluge.
                      There is even a big boat in Kentucky celebrating the event.
                      Do you seriously regard anything YEC put forward to justify the Bible passage as evidence?

                      Like

                    44. I can’t imagine why you think you could have offended me. I was addressing Ark but he doesn’t offend me either. I enjoy these discussions far more than with other Christians who just quote the Bible at you. I can’t deal with fundamentalism at all. And anything Ark says pales into insignificance compared with the insults I get from fellow believers, though often they don’t accept me as such. I’m technically agnostic, I don’t know if there is a God. I just act like there is. But I’d rather atheism was true than many versions of Christianity.

                      Peace

                      Liked by 1 person

                    45. let me illustrate the point about evidence by reference to the second extant Josephus passage, the one that almost every scholar regards as authentic, the one about James the brother of Jesus “who was called the Christ” and was illegally executed by the high priest who was deposed as a result. Why is that evidence for the truth of the claim and not just the making of it? According to scholars (just confining ourselves to non Christian scholars) that’s evidence because Josephus was from a priestly family and a resident of Jerusalem with a keen interest in such matters and so even if absent from the city at this time was in a position to know if this claim was true. Also they judge interpolation unlikely because by the time Christians were in a position to tamper with documents they were embarrassed by the story of Jesus brothers because they believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity and it seems odd to suppose this whole incident with the high priest was manufactured to slip in a passing reference to Jesus. Now counter arguments are possible. Carrier makes some. But he nevertheless assigns some probability to the account which he factors into his Bayesian analysis. He regards it as one of a handful of pieces of weak evidence for Jesus existence. Why do you think he doesn’t agree with you? I suggest it is because he is a qualified historian and understands how the term evidence functions in his discipline. Which is why his argument is so much stronger than yours. Admitting counter evidence strengthens an argument. Why not take a leaf out of his book?

                      Like

                    46. Carrier rejects the second passage in Josephus.
                      The rest of your explanation is simply reaching, exactly as any Christian apologist would do.
                      Before long you might very likely appeal to the likes of Habermas, Licona and Strobel.
                      And you have still to present evidence That demonstrates the veracity of your claims.
                      The problem is compounded by the fact you are a Christian and suffer to some extent from indoctrination which blunts your ability to exercise genuine critical thought.
                      Furthermore, you suggested/alluded in your previous comment there is a case to be made for a flat earth.
                      Do you honestly consider you carry any credibility by holding such a view?

                      Like

                    47. Art. Stop misusing the term “evidence” on my blog. Please.

                      The fact that one can sit on his porch from sun up to sun down, day after day, year after year and see the sun rise in the east and set in the west is evidence that the sun revolves around the earth. It is misinterpreted evidence, but it is still evidence.

                      Liked by 1 person

                    48. Not according to the dictionary definition you provided.
                      If someone made the claim I could swim underwater for five kilometres without any artificial breathing apparatus would you regard this as evidence?

                      Likewise, do you regard the gospel assertions that the character Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead as evidence or simply a claim?

                      Like

                    49. No I never said there is a case for a flat earth. I said there is probably evidence for it (I don’t know because I’m not going down that rabbit hole) even though it’s obviously wrong. As there is for all sorts of manifestly wrong positions. You are back to your inability to understand evidence as opposed to proof. And your speculation about my background and who I would cite, all of which is wrong btwz would be irrelevant even if true. The motives behind an argument have no bearing on validity or soundness. And yes Carrier rejects the second reference on the balance of probability. He nevertheless assigns it some probability. That’s the point. He doesn’t say it’s not evidence. He says it’s not persuasive evidence. Because though I don’t agree with him he knows how evidence is used. Learn from him.

                      Like

                    50. I don’t know why you feel the need to be abusive. I don’t think I have been with you but if I have I apologise. FYI I hold a degree in Philosophy (and Politics and Economics) from the best rated college of Oxford University. I have a pretty thorough education in ideas like evidence validity and soundness. That’s why I know that a proposition can be so manifestly false that only a moron could believe it and still have evidence in it’s favour. As I say I don’t know if that’s the case with flat earth but it certainly is for geocentrism. According to historians of science the balance of evidence at the time of Galileo was for geocentrism (can’t remember details but there’s a video on it at O’Neill’s site). That doesn’t mean there’s any chance it’s true. We now have much better evidence. That’s the point about evidence, you can have it on both sides even when one side is risibly wrong. As for the claims of the Christian faith it’s precisely because I understand evidence that I don’t say for example that one can prove, even on the balance of probability, in contrast to the authors you imagine I would recommend, that Jesus rose and its why I am prepared to endure the same kind of abuse from Christians as from you by acknowledging that along with Bible errors etc. Because I dont care about any party line. Peace.

                      Like

                    51. Excellent summary.

                      So out of curiosity, why does such an educated, intelligent person like yourself believe in Jesus’ resurrection and that he is the creator god?

                      Like

                    52. I haven’t actually looked at the flat earther arguments. I’m guessing there will be one or two arguments that could qualify as evidence. That doesn’t mean there’s any likelihood that it’s true. You still seem to miss that you can have evidence for propositions that are entirely wrong like the claim the moon landing was a fake. The balance of evidence at the time of Galileo was for geocentrism although we now know from much better evidence that it is false and Galileo was right.
                      The fact that against every historian including Carrier you say there’s no evidence for Jesus existence (not just wildly insufficient evidence as Carrier would say) shows you just aren’t understanding how that term is used.
                      Where did I say belief is evidence? I said there isn’t sufficient historical evidence for the Gospels key theological claims and most of the historical ones. As for your unlicensed psychoanalysis it has no relevance to what is true. At a guess I’d say you are an ex fundamentalist and young earth creationist who was taught every word of the Bible is literally true or else it’s all lies. You found out it’s not all true but couldn’t shake the black and white thinking so you decided it’s all false. But what would that have to do with your arguments? Those fail because you don’t understand how the study of history works. The fact that, contrary to my faith commitments I acknowledge that those claims (including the resurrection) can’t be established by the historical evidence is precisely because I do know how historical evidence works. I argue with plenty of Christians who think just like you and say for example ‘there is no evidence for atheism” or even evolution because they have the same erroneous grasp of what evidence means. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming and I have no doubt of it’s truth. The evidence for atheism is good too, natural evils being the best in my view. But as I say evidence and proof are distinct.
                      So here for example the fact that the extant copies of Josephus and Tacitus refer to Jesus is a fact. You can use the claim of interpolation to cast doubt on their evidential value but unless you can prove interpolation they remain evidence. And if you respond to me by pointing out the features of the Testimonium and the lack of pre Eusebian quotation that favour interpolation I wouldn’t respond by saying that’s not evidence. In fact the Testimonium is almost certainly at least partly and perhaps wholly interpolated.
                      Tbh I really don’t understand why you wouldn’t want to make your argument stronger by just saying what Carrier says that the evidence for Jesus existence is very weak and outweighed contrary evidence. That would be a claim that might at least get you a hearing in a discussion with a scholar like Ehrman for example but if you make the claim you do they would just conclude as I do that you don’t understand how the term is used or else are deliberately misusing it. Peace!

                      Like

                    53. Evidence of a claim is not evidence of the veracity of said claim.

                      “I’m guessing there are one or two arguments ( for a flat earth) that could qualify as evidence. ”
                      Just as two parallel lines on the snowy roof on Christmas day could be regarded as evidence that Santa really did pay you a visit the night before.
                      Jesus h… give me strength.
                      🤦

                      Like

                    54. Evidence of a claim is not evidence of the veracity of said claim.

                      Exactly. That is what every lawyer on the planet will tell you. And that is what koitaleel and I have been trying to tell you.

                      Like

                    55. You are asserting it is still evidence.
                      I have been at pains to explain it is evidence of a claim but not evidence as defined by the dictionary definition which you provided.

                      Like

  2. Gary, you’re just not an honest broker. You insist on evidence, but routinely, always, find a way to dismiss the evidence presented to you. And it always boils down to some version of, “But that document was later. Nobody wrote something at that very time that we have the original document from. You can’t be sure of anything, ever….so it’s all nonsense!”

    You’re not seeking the truth. You are grasping at anything that you can justify rejecting it.

    Like

    1. I very clearly state in a comment above that my bet is that Tacitus did write the passage above and most likely obtained his information about Christianity and Chrestus from interrogating Christian prisoners when he was a governor.

      Liked by 1 person

    2. Joel, It’s not clear if you are a mythicist or a Christian. I’m guessing you are a Christian who holds to the “suppression thesis”? That is that people who don’t believe must be sinfully suppressing what they know to be true. Now very likely you wouldn’t consider me a Christian as I’m not an inerrantist but in fact I believe on faith (not because I believe it proven) that there is a God and Jesus is his son. I also happen to know the suppression thesis is false. Because when I was an agnostic I very much wanted to believe (Gary would no doubt say that’s why I eventually did and maybe that’s true) but I just didn’t see the evidence. In fact I still think there are no compelling arguments for God’s existence. I’m just following a hunch. If in fact you are a mythicist you can ignore the foregoing.

      Liked by 1 person

    3. @joel.

      In the years I have interacted with you and others who claim to be Christian/ believers not one single piece of verifiable evidence has ever been presented to demonstrate the veracity of a single foundational claim of Christianity.

      You try to present yourself as an open minded individual yet when it comes to the crunch you are as indoctrinated as any Christian.

      In fact, every time you criticise non believers or any other Christisn who does not follow the doctrinal version of faith you cling to you merely demonstrate just how much of a hypocrite you are.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. So here I actually agreewith you Ark on the assumption that the foundational claim of Christianity is the Resurrection rather than the the existence of Jesus and subject to the assumption that verifiable means one can’t at this historical distance establish scientifically Jesus rose.

        I actually think a grave robbery would be the most likely explanation historically because I think extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence of people are to be expected to accept them on evidential grounds.

        Like

      2. That’s because you dismiss every bit of evidence. At some point, I’ve just had to conclude that neither you nor Gary really are interested in getting to the truth of anything in the Bible. You actively find excuses to deny and reject. You don’t even accept basic, mundane facts.

        Like

        1. Wrong yet again. Your religious beliefs are the result of indoctrination and you have yet to present anything but outlandish claims. This is why you are unable to understand that some anonymous text which claims a first century itinnerent Rabbi walked on water and was the world’s first Instant Viticulturist who came back from the dead is nothing but unsubstantiated bullshit.
          Your life is simply a constant state of the denial of reality, and yet you have the outrageous audacity to ridicule the likes of Ken Ham.
          However, that said, and while the liklihood is high you will come back with yet more ridiculous bullshit, nevertheless I challenge you once again to present evidence of a single foundational claim of your faith based religion.

          Let’s see how honest you truly are….

          Away you go.

          Like

            1. All I did was illustrate your hypocrisy and the fact of your indoctrination.
              The rest is all you, Joel.

              Not up to presenting evidence?
              😀

              Like

                    1. Always the one to bail when push comes to shove, eh Joel?
                      Lambaste a Dickhead YEC Iike Ken Ham but you haven’t got a shred of intellectual integrity to provide a single piece of verifiable evidence for even one foundational tenet of your faith based religion.
                      As I asserted before… You are nothing but a hypocrite. Oh, and indoctrinated.

                      Like

                    2. Or, maybe it is simply you recognise you have no evidence for your indoctrinated religious claims and don’t want to expose yourself [personal insult deleted by Gary. ]?

                      Like

                    3. 😊
                      In fact as you have shown yourself to be an indoctrinated Christian, and a glaring hypocrite who considers Ken Ham is an arse then what you claim regarding this “evidence” for your beliefs has no credibility whatsoever.

                      I suppose it could be said your lack of hubris and your intellectual dishonesty is because of your religious indoctrination.
                      What do you consider the reason?

                      Like

                    4. I’m just a clear-thinking individual who calls them like I see them. And there has never been one iota of evidence for anything in the Bible that you haven’t been able to come up with some ridiculous reason for dismissing. It’s quite predictable and comical.

                      Like

                    5. @joel.
                      If you were as you describe you would not be Christian and like Gary would have deconverted long ago.
                      The Bible is little more than historical fiction and geopolitical foundation myth.
                      From the nonsense tale of Adam and Eve, the Noachian Flood and Exodus and Conquest all of which have been refuted with rock solid scientific evidence, right through to the anonymous gospels and the largely fraudulent Epistles.
                      You have never presented a single piece of evidence to demonstrate the veracity of anything.
                      And your indoctrination / faith will not allow you to admit this fact ( ask Gary or any deconvert). This is why you continue to put on this idiotic holier-than-thou posturing which, quite frankly merely reinforces your hypocrisy [personal insult deleted].

                      As the saying goes, put up or push off

                      Like

                    6. Haha…Ark…without being presumptuous, when it comes to Biblical knowledge and expertise, I simply know more than you. Your immediate nosedives into personal insults on a consistent basis tells everyone with a brain you are not someone to be taken seriously. The way you characterize everything in the Bible is just sophmoric and juvenile–it tells everyone, “Warning! If you’re looking for intelligent, thoughtful discussion on these topics, you’d best avoid me!”

                      Like

                    7. “Intelligent, thoughtful discussion” in relationship to the Bible is next-to-impossible since believers approach the discussion using primarily Bible scriptures and resources that confirm their stance — whereas the other person brings facts, figures, accredited authority’s research findings, archeological discoveries, etc. to the table. In other words, they are able to “see the forest.”

                      Moreover, the believer is convinced on an emotional basis of their position, while the non-believer has no such attachment.

                      Liked by 2 people

                    8. Thank you for just reinforcing my point.
                      And I think for any clear-headed person reading any of this, Ark has (as always) come across as much more emotional and manic as me.

                      Like

                    9. Unfortunately, some skeptics are convinced on an emotional basis too. Why does Ark get so worked up in these discussions? Why does he almost immediately start insulting my Christian readers? I’m tired of it. He is going to get banned if he doesn’t start behaving like a reasonable, rational, adult.

                      Liked by 1 person

                    10. No you’re not. You simply parrot the indoctrinated spiel like all apologists.
                      If you truly had anything that refuted the archaeological and scientific evidence you would desist with this comical display of faux intellectualism, present you evidence and kill the criticism stone dead.

                      Instead you make a mockery of yourself and every deconvert recognises this fact.

                      Therefore, I stand by my assertion. You are indoctrinated and could not present a single piece of evidence to demonstrate the veracity of any foundational tenet of your religion.

                      Like

                    11. This is coming from a guy sympathetic to Jesus mythicism with a closet full of tinfoil hats.

                      Like

                    12. Again, rather than kill any criticism stone dead you simply continue to make an arse of yourself, demonstrating once again your indoctrination.
                      Not one single foundational tenet of the Christian faith has any evidence to support the claims it makes, and you remain tied to the nonsense you purport to be fact.

                      As stated on several occasions, you lack any intellectual credibility.

                      Like

                    13. This is coming from a guy who denies the historical fact that Jesus was a real historical person.

                      And you keep on using “hypocrite”–do you even know what the word means?

                      Like

                    14. Ark is wrong to say there is no evidence for the historical Jesus. However, he would not be wrong if he were to say that the evidence for an historical Jesus is very weak.

                      God the Creator comes to earth in human flesh and leaves little to no evidence of his earthly visit. Ridiculous. Why didn’t he appear during a debate in the Roman Senate? Why not preach a sermon from the roof of Caesar’s palace? Nope, “I think I’ll go to a backwater corner of the Roman Empire and perform some minor magic tricks and questionable healings.”

                      Question: How does an eternal God die on a cross?

                      Like

                    15. If you are so rational and clear thinking, why do you reject majority scholarly opinion regarding the authorship of the Gospels, Joel?

                      Like

                    16. I don’t. I acknowledge they are “anonymous,” in that names are not literally written in the documents themselves. That’s what scholars mean by “anonymous.” At the same time, I acknowledge that the early Church had attributed them to M,M, L, and J. Furthermore, I acknowledge the consensus that M, M and L are dated to the 60s-80s, and John to the 80s-90s.

                      Like

                    17. Very good. The Gospels are four anonymously written texts (the authors never identify themselves in their texts); written between the 60s and the 90s CE, therefore the first text written at least three or four decades after Jesus’ death; the early Church attributed them to one of the Apostles or one of their disciples, M, M, L, and J; our first record of this church-wide attribution appearing in the mid to late second century, which would be almost 100 years after the first Gospel was written.

                      And you believe that these four texts are historically reliable?? Why?

                      Like

                    18. Well, you’re fudging on the numbers…more like closer to 40-60 years later. Doesn’t matter. The fact is MML were written within a generation of the life of Jesus. By all accounts, that is really, really early.

                      And, like we’ve gone around so many times before, they (along with Acts) are filled with provable, verifiable historical facts, people, events. They scream “This is history” and much of it is, in fact, irrefutably reliable. Given that, when so much IS 100% provably reliable, that supports the reliability for other things of which we don’t have rock solid evidence for. Simply put, the testimony is reliable so much of the time, it lends credibility to the books as a whole.

                      That’s why.

                      Like

                    19. Are you saying that if a book is historically accurate regarding the major political figures of the alleged time period of the story in the book, then we must accept all claims within the book as historically accurate?

                      Like

                    20. I’m saying that when a book claiming to be about history gives a lot of verifiable historical information, then level-headed people will conclude that it is historically reliable.

                      Like

                    21. Of course not. But that is a detail in a larger work that is historically reliable. Therefore, if one is to reject a mundane historical detail like that, one needs to have a rational reason to reject it. You don’t.

                      Like

                    22. I accept biblical claims when there is evidence to support them. I support the existence of Israelite kings Omri and Ahab because there is evidence to support their historicity. That doesn’t mean that every story in the Bible about Ahab is historical. Without supporting evidence, they are just stories. Ditto for most of the stories about Jesus. They are just stories. They could be true, they could be theological inventions. Most modern educated people use this standard for all ancient texts.

                      Like

                    23. “That doesn’t mean that every story in the Bible about Ahab is historical.” How do you know? You’re reading an account of provably historical people and provably historical events. What would make you then say, “Oh, but this part about something that happened within Israel, before Assyria came on the scene–since it isn’t ‘verified’ in the Assyrian annals–it’s just ‘a story’?

                      Trust me, educated biblical scholars do NOT share your view. Sure, those in the “I wanna be like Bart” might, but such a view is logically inconsistent.

                      Like

                    24. Gary: “That doesn’t mean that every story in the Bible about Ahab is historical.”

                      Joel: How do you know?

                      I don’t. But they are just stories until evidence can be presented that proves them to be historical. That is how professional historians work, Joel. It is called “the historical method”, and it is accepted as the standard by professional historians all over the world. I don’t care how (almost exclusively Christian) Bible scholars, (almost exclusively Mormon) Book of Mormon scholars, or (almost exclusively Muslim} Koran scholars arrive at their conclusions.

                      Like

                    25. You’ve shown yourself to be among the most extreme minimaliats. I guarantee you that such a view is NOT the scholarly consensus.

                      Like

                    26. Do you respect Book of Koran scholarly consensus? How about Book of Mormon scholarly consensus? No? Well, I feel the same way about Bible scholarship. I trust the consensus of professional historians, and professional historians believe that: a Jewish man named Jesus of Nazareth did exist in the Herodian Kingdom of Judea in the 1st century CE; that he was crucified; that his followers believed he appeared to them after his death.

                      Please point out ONE story about Jesus in the Gospels which you believe to be an objective historical fact. Not an event (a crucifixion), but the story of that event as told in the Gospels. I don’t think you can, Joel.

                      Like

                    27. The very fact that you equate the Bible with those two others shows how ridiculous your stance is.

                      Nothing in the Gospels is “objective historical fact.” It’s all in the form of story. Still, it is all testifying to real historical events. The very way you’ve formed your question betrays your problem. You’re working from a faulty paradigm.

                      Like

                    28. Let me ask you a hypothetical.
                      Suppose the only account of Sennarcherib’s invasion into Judah around 701 BC came from his own annals–meaning the accounts in Isaiah 36-37 and II Kings 18-19 didn’t exist. The ONLY thing we had was Sennacherib’s account. –Would you take that account as history or just a story?

                      Like

                    29. If the claims of any inscription on a monument or any individual ancient document cannot be confirmed by other sources or archaeological evidence it is just a claim; a story. Might be true. Might be legend (fiction). That is how historians evaluate all historical claims, Joel. Just because someone in Antiquity wrote something does not make what they wrote historical fact. The claim needs corroboration, of some sort, documentary or archaeological.

                      Like

                    30. I know you don’t realize it, but your stance effectively erases probably 90% of the ancient history most scholars accept as history. Your stance (accept nothing that isn’t verified by something else) erases history.

                      Like

                    31. “The principal (and only considerable) source of the Code of Hammurabi is the stela discovered at Susa in 1901 by the French Orientalist Jean-Vincent Scheil and now preserved in the Louvre.”

                      Hmmm…I guess Hammurabi is just a story. Lol…

                      Like

                    32. Gary: Could you [Joel] give an example of one universally recognized historical event which has only one source?

                      dictionary: An event is something that happens, especially when it is unusual or important.

                      I didn’t ask for a piece of archaeology. I asked about an event; something that allegedly happened; an occurrence in the ancient past. Come on, Joel. You are a college professor. The stella you mention is evidence in and of itself of…the writings on the stella. The existence of the stella is not proof that a story told in the stella is an historical fact.

                      Like

                    33. haha…yes! THE TEXT OF THE STELLA IS THE EVIDENCE! But what else from that actual time is evidence of the existence of a man name Hammurabi?

                      Like

                    34. If the one Stella is the only source for the existence of this man then you win the argument. However, if one source proves the existence of a person and his deeds then we must believe that Achilles had supernatural powers that could only be stopped by shooting him in his heel with an arrow.

                      Like

                    35. Or we could just exercise literary competency and recognize the difference between the genres of myth and history. Seriously, I don’t understand why this is such a hard concept for you to grasp. Constantly conflating the genre of myth and the genre of history boggles my mind.

                      Like

                    36. Tell us, Dr. Anderson, which of the following Gospel stories are myth and which are historical:

                      -the story of wise men following a star from the East to visit the child Jesus in Bethlehem, stopping off to chat with Herod in Jerusalem.

                      -the slaughter of the innocents in Bethlehem by King Herod

                      -Jesus visiting the Temple at age 12 and amazing the priests and other Jewish officials with his wisdom.

                      -Jesus turning water into wine in Cana.

                      -Jesus standing above or on the temple pinnacle with Satan.

                      -Moses and Elijah appearing to Jesus and three of his disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration.

                      -Jesus entering Jerusalem on Palm Sunday to be greeted by crowds hailing him as the son of David, King of Israel.

                      -Jesus’ burial in the rock tomb of Joseph of Arimathea.

                      -Matthew’s story of Roman guards at Jesus’ tomb.

                      -Jesus’ post-death appearance to over 500 brethren at once.

                      Like

                    37. None of the Gospels is “myth.” “Myth” is a specific genre that plays by certain literary rules relevant to “myth.” I’m sorry, but you still don’t get that.

                      The Gospels are historical biographies. They are making historical claims and drawing theological claims from them.

                      Like

                    38. Let me re-phrase and then hopefully I and my readers can get a straight answer from you:

                      Of the Gospel stories listed above, are there any of them which you believe are non-historical? If so, which are historical and which are non-historical. (I’m not asking you to tell us the literary genre, just whether or not the story is historical; whether or not the events described in the story really took place in human history.) You can copy and paste the list and put either “H” for historical or “N” for non-historical to make it easier for you.

                      Like

                    39. All the stories are historical??

                      Wow. Even most Christian NT scholars doubt that the story of Roman guards at the tomb is historical. Many also doubt Herod’s slaughter of baby boys in Bethlehem. I now realize you are a Protestant fundamentalist. Only a Protestant fundamentalist would claim that all stories in the Gospels are historical.

                      If I had known this earlier, I wouldn’t have bothered debating you on this subject.

                      Good to know.

                      Like

                    40. Well, since you are unable to grasp nuance when it comes to the Bible, and since you insist that I put things into either “history” or “fiction” buckets…lol…simplistic questions get simplistic answers.

                      Like

                    41. It is a very simple question, Joel. Is Matthew’s story of Roman guards at Jesus’ tomb historical or non-historical?

                      It either was or it wasn’t. You can say that Matthew didn’t mean for it to be understood historically; that it is an allegory; that it is a parable; or whatever. But the story is either historical or non-historical. The fact that you have such a difficult time answering this question shows to me (and I’m sure to my readers) that this question makes you very uncomfortable, and that is why you prevericate.

                      Like

                    42. What is so unthinkable historically-speaking to the notion there were guards put at the tomb for the weekend?

                      Like

                    43. There is nothing at all unthinkable about posting guards at the tomb of a trouble maker. It may have happened. But many experts don’t think it did. Can you admit that it is impossible to know?

                      Like

                    44. Many experts DO think it happened. What we have in that case is a mundane and entirely believable detail found within a historical biography about a real historical person. To call that “fiction” or “just a story” is NOT to say “it’s impossible to know.” It is to make a definitive statement that it did NOT happen, and that it is “fiction.”

                      You are moving the goalposts….from “it’s myth,” to “it’s a story,” to “nobody knows.”

                      Like

                    45. If you look back, my original question was: Is there a story in the Gospels that you believe is an historical fact? Now you say “all of them”.

                      Like

                    46. To call that “fiction” or “just a story” is NOT to say “it’s impossible to know.” It is to make a definitive statement that it did NOT happen, and that it is “fiction.”

                      Every story in the Gospels could be true (historical). And every story in the Gospels could be non-historical (fiction). There is no way to know. We do not have undisputed, independent, corroborating sources for any of the stories. We know that Matthew and Luke had access to Mark’s text. And since the Gospel of John was written near the end of the century, it is very likely that he had Mark’s text, and it is also possible he had Matthew and Luke’s text. So, …

                      -Was Jesus, an apocalyptic Jewish preacher in the first century, a real historical person? Answer: Very probably, yes.

                      -So was Jesus born in Bethlehem? Answer: No way to know for certain.

                      -Who was Jesus’ father? Answer: No way to know for certain.

                      -Did Jesus live in Egypt as a small child? Answer: No way to know for certain.

                      -At age 12, did Jesus visit the Temple and engage in conversation with Jewish elders? Answer: No way to know for certain.

                      -Was Jesus baptized in the Jordan River by John the Baptist as described in the Gospels? Answer: No way to know for certain.

                      -Did Jesus perform any of the supernatural healings described in the Gospels? Answer: No way to know for certain.

                      -Did Jesus turn water into wine? Answer: No way to know for certain.

                      -Was Jesus arrested for causing a disturbance in the Temple? Answer: Probably, yes.

                      -Did Jesus overturn the tables of the moneychangers in the Temple? Answer: No way to know for certain.

                      -Was Jesus tried by Pilate himself? Answer: No way to know for certain.

                      -Was Jesus crucified by the Romans? Answer: Very probably, yes.

                      -Was Jesus buried in the rock tomb of a member of the Sanhedrin? Answer: No way to know for certain.

                      -Did early Christians believe that Jesus had appeared to some of them after his death? Yes.

                      -Was Jesus bodily resurrected from the dead? Answer: No way to know for certain.

                      That is how a reasonable, rational person answers these questions. An unreasonable, irrational person says either: “They are all are historical,” or, “They are all fiction”.

                      Like

                    47. You just can’t admit it, can you Dr. Anderson? You can’t admit that there is no way to know if the overwhelming majority of the stories in the Gospels are historical.

                      Like

                    48. Again, we have historical biographies dated to within 40 of the events; they contain provable, verifiable, historical people and events mentioned.

                      Given that fact, when it comes to some parts within that historical biography that can’t be specifically verified, the overall context of the text is still history, therefore a level-headed person will give the benefit of the doubt to the veracity of the text that has already been provably rooted in history.

                      For example, there is absolutely no good, logical reason to doubt that there was a Joseph of Arimathea who had Christ buried. His mention is set within chapters that are talking about a historical event, and which contain references to known historical people.

                      Like

                    49. Are you really that gullible or just being deceitful, willing to say and do anything to protect your cherished superstitions? The authors of the Gospels were not writing history textbooks or historical biographies in the modern sense of that term. They were writing religious propaganda. They were writing so that “you might believe”. If adding a fictious character and even a fictitious subplot/story to the overall Jesus Story helped people to “believe”, why not? Adding fictious embellishments to stories about historical figures was perfectly acceptable in that time period.

                      And don’t tell me (again) that I don’t know what I am talking about because I am not an expert. My position reflects the consensus position of the overwhelming majority of critical scholars (evangelicals and fundamentalist Protestant scholars are not included in that esteemed category). That is a fact.

                      Just admit that your beliefs in Jesus the Christ are primarily based on faith (your emotions and subjective perceptions of a ghost living inside you) not on objective historical evidence. Be honest and admit the truth, Joel. It will feel good to be honest for once.

                      Liked by 1 person

                    50. So, if someone tells of a historical person and events, but does it with a specific purpose to get you to believe that person’s claims, then it’s unreliable? geesh….

                      Like

                    51. Again, not what I said. You are either dense or dishonest, Joel.

                      What I have said (multiple times) is: There is no way to know if the overwhelming majority of the stories in the Gospels are historical or non-historical. For instance, there may have been a member of the Sanhedrin named Joseph of Arimathea who offered his family tomb for Jesus’ burial. Neither I nor any skeptic can prove this man did not exist. But neither can believers provide corroborating evidence that he did. Therefore, Joseph may be a historical figure. He may also be a theological or literary invention. We don’t know.

                      Can you please be honest and admit that, Joel?

                      Like

                    52. @Gary

                      If you consider Pilate’s nature and the reason for Jesus’ execution there is every reason to believe that Jesus was left on the cross to rot as was the custom for those regarded as enemies of the state.

                      Furthermore, the earliest account of the tale is from Paul who never mentions a tomb or Joseph of Arimathea, which helps makes the case the entire tomb narrative to be a late addition.

                      Like

                    53. Here is my bet: Dr. Anderson “knows” when a story in any ancient text is mythical when it involves supernatural claims. When it comes to the Bible, however, he does not use this standard. Why the inconsistency?

                      And I will bet that Dr. Anderson will not tell us which of the NT stories in my previous comment are myth and which are historical. I won’t say he won’t answer the question, but I will be very surprised if he does.

                      Like

                    54. What story in the Gospels about Jesus do you believe is an historical fact? Not a general concept such as: Jesus was born. Jesus was a first century apocalyptic Jewish preacher. Jesus had the reputation as a healer and miracle worker. Jesus was crucified by the Romans; but a specific story in the Gospels about Jesus’ birth, miracles, or crucifixion.

                      Like

                    55. I believe it is all rooted in history. At the same time, they are presented as story, much like a movie about some historical event or person. To come at the text saying, “Which part is history and which part is story?” is to completely misunderstand everything.

                      For example, I don’t think there was a literal “Sermon on the Mount,” but I think the writer took things Jesus taught during his ministry and put them together into a singular “sermon” within the literary structure of his text to highlight his christological claim that Jesus is a “new Moses.”

                      Like

                1. I disagree. All he has ever presented are his heavy biased Christian views which are nothing but unsubstantiated claims.

                  However, as you and I are on the same page on most things Christian can you offer an example of the evidence you believe Joel has presented for the foundational claims of his faith based religion?

                  Like

          1. I agree with most of what you have said, Ark, except I don’t believe that you accept the standard definition of evidence. Evidence can simply be information. It doesn’t have to be provable facts. There is first century information, in first century documents, about a first century apocalyptic Jewish preacher named Jesus. That is undeniable. The fact that you reject this information as evidence is irrelevant. The fact is neither you nor anyone else can prove that all these first century statements about this man are legends or lies. Some of it could be true.

            Your use of the term “evidence” is incorrect. It will hinder you having productive conversations on this topic.

            Like

            1. “Evidence. The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. ”

              Based on the above definition, give me one example of the foundational tenets of Christianity which Joel regards are fact that would be considered evidence.

              Like

              1. The foundational claim of Christianity is that Jesus existed. If he did not, Christianity collapses. So what evidence do Christians have that an apocalyptic first century Jewish preacher existed? Not much! But they do have several first and second century, (probably) independent sources who mention a Jesus or a Christ or a “Chrestus”.

                1. the writings of Paul
                2. the Gospel of Mark (Matthew and Luke are simply copies/embellishments of Mark)
                3. Possibly the Gospel of John
                4. Statements about Jesus in Josephus’ writings.
                5. Tacitus’ statements about a “Chrestus”

                To me this is very weak evidence, but it is evidence.

                Like

                1. The primary foundational tenets of Christianity are that the Bible character Jesus of Nazareth is Yahweh come in the flesh and the creator of the universe.

                  To me these are all simply ubsubstantiated/ unsupported claims not evidence, so we will have to agree to disagree.

                  Like

                  1. You are conflating very different claims.

                    1. A Jewish apocalyptic preacher in the first century named Jesus stirred up trouble in Jerusalem and was crucified by the Romans.
                    2. The Jesus of the Gospels is the Jewish God Yahweh and the creator of the universe.

                    There is weak evidence for the first claim. There is no evidence for the second claim.

                    Like

                    1. Again, what you consider weak evidence I regard as an unsupported claim.
                      Based on the dictionary definition you posted none of the claims regarding the apocalyptic rabbi pan out.

                      Like

    4. @Joel.

      If you referring to the gospels, these are not regarded as historical biographies.

      That these stories contain the occasional factual detail relating to certain people and places also does make them historically reliable.

      The term you are looking for here is historical fiction.

      Like

          1. Haha….yes, ask a historian who is not an expert in Biblical Studies. That makes sense. I think an expert in Biblical Studies is in a better position to properly ascertain the genre of any given biblical text.

            Maybe we should ask a historian about a scientific question, or economic question? LOL…

            Questions about biblical documents are best answered by experts in the field of Biblical Studies.

            Like

            1. It might be helpful therefore if you made the distinction between ancient biography and modern biography.
              The latter will try to stress facts wherever possible while the former not necessarily so.
              As we know the gospels are not historically reliable then to use a term like biography with a modern understanding of the term when referring to the character Jesus of Nazareth is erroneous.

              Like

              1. The fact that they were written 2,000 years ago normally is a good indication that when we say “historical biographies,” that we are not asserting they are MODERN.

                Still, they are historically reliable. That doesn’t mean they were written as modern documentaries. It means that experts in the field acknowledge that the people and events they discuss are, indeed, historical.

                Like

                    1. Really? Then you are up against the entire corpus of secular historians, and based on the fact you are an indoctrinated Christian who believes the bible character rose from the dead I’ll go with their academic position rather than yours if it’s all the same?
                      Perhaps you should stick to writing book reviews where your personal opinion does not come into conflict with academia and won’t leave you floundering like a goldfish out of water ?

                      Like

                    2. No I’m not. I’m well-versed in this stuff and have degrees to prove it. You’re just blindly parroting those who tell you want you want to hear. Over the years, I’ve tried to tease out the nuance in all this stuff, and you just (A) insist on simplistic answers, so you can (B) mock and deride them. You’re not interested in truly understanding anything.

                      Like

                    3. You view of the gospels is heavily biased towards your Christian beliefs often with scant regard for actual facts and evidence.
                      For you to acknowledge the historical unreliability of the gospels would be to seriously compromise your faith-based beliefs towards things such as miracles and other unhistorically unveritable material.
                      Plenty of Christians hold degrees. So what?

                      Like

                    4. That is false, and you know it.

                      You attempt to use your degree in OT studies to silence skeptics. It won’t work with us. Not because we know more than you but because we know consensus expert opinion. Historical events which the consensus of historians believe really did occur in human history appear in public university history textbooks as historical facts. If they don’t reach the level of consensus, they are labeled as “disputed historical events”. And when there is poor historical evidence for an alleged event, it is listed as “legend has it that…”.

                      Look up any story in the Gospels in your local public university’s world history textbook and you will not find it.

                      -The visit of the magi to Jerusalem and Bethlehem? You won’t find it.
                      -Jesus turning water to wine. You won’t find it.
                      -You won’t find any Gospel stories. You may find a brief summary about Jesus being an apocalyptic Jewish preacher in the first century who was crucified by the Romans and a new religious cult sprung up around the claim that he had risen from the dead but that is it!

                      Prove us wrong, Joel! Demonstrate to us that any specific story in the Gospels is found in public university history textbooks.

                      Liked by 1 person

                  1. Like I said, you aren’t an honest broker. You’re not seeking the truth. You are actively looking for any excuse not to believe even the most mundane details.

                    Like

                    1. If you believe that every (non-parable) story in the Gospels is an historical fact you are either very naive or delusional. I personally think it is a third option: You are so desperate to hang onto your precious superstitious that you will lie and deceive to maintain their social acceptability.

                      Like

              1. You really need to stop trying to parallel the Bible with the Quran. The Bible tells of actual historical events; the Quran is like random oracles, with little or no appeals to history at all.

                Like

                1. That the bible tells of certain historical events in no way makes it historically reliable, any more than a James Bond novel is historically reliable simply because it may record details about Mi6, Aston Martin’s or London.

                  To suggest otherwise is simply disingenious and you should know better.

                  RR 3

                  Like

                  1. Good grief. Apparently, I need to speak slowly and use big words to make my point: The Bible: Tells of historical events in narrative form. The Quran: NOT NARRATIVE; VERY LITTLE REFERENCE TO HISTORICAL EVENTS AT ALL.

                    To equate the two as being the same kind of writing is shockingly ignorant.

                    Like

                    1. I never said they were the same, merely correcting your terminology and explaining that the term you are looking for is historical fiction.
                      Surely even one as obtuse as you cannot possibly consider there is any veracity to such tales as the Exodus or the Noachian Flood?

                      Like

                    2. Any text from Antiquity must be evaluated the same: Statements that can be corroborated with information from other sources is deemed historical. Statements which cannot be corroborated are placed in the “alleged event” category.

                      Like

                  2. Amen!

                    Joel thinks that just because the Gospels correctly mention the name of the Roman Caesar and the names of the rulers of Judea and Galilee in circa 30 CE that we must accept as historical fact every tale told in those four ancient texts. He is delusional…or lying.

                    Like

                    1. @Gary.

                      He also displays a nasty habit of reading comments incorrectly and has a tendency to go off on a tangent and, based on his comment history he will likely come back with a comment that opens with LOL! and then continues by telling you your understanding is naieve or sophomore and reminding you he has several degrees.
                      SIGH… So the likes of William Lane Craig and Habermas and look how open minded and honest they are when it comes to the historical reliability of the gospels.

                      Like

                    2. It is a classic Christian apologist’s defensive strategy: Attack the critic mercilessly, irrationally, and incoherently to distract from the critic’s devastating criticism of the apologist’s beloved superstitions.

                      Liked by 1 person

Leave a comment