What must I do to be saved? Answer: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ!
The loss of faith (deconversion) of an individual who has previously professed faith in Jesus Christ as his or her Lord and Savior does not rattle the theology of most Christians. Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Methodists, and other groups fully expect that some true believers will abandon the Faith. Not so with Evangelicals. In evangelical theology, once saved always saved. True believers cannot lose their faith/salvation. Once Jesus “dwells within you” he will NEVER leave you or forsake you. Never. Ever. You are eternally and irrevocably saved…if you truly believed.
So how do evangelicals explain my loss of faith? If the means of eternal salvation truly is belief/faith in Jesus as God, as the resurrected Christ, then I was at one time a true believer. At the age of nine I prayed to Jesus to forgive me of all my sins, to be my Lord and Savior, and that I would follow his will for my life no matter what he asked. If salvation truly is by faith (belief, trust) in Jesus, then I WAS saved, dear evangelicals.
So how is it possible that in the spring of 2014 I stopped believing that Jesus the Christ even exists, let alone that he is my Lord and Savior? How can someone who has experienced the presence of Jesus within him one day be convinced that Christianity and all its supernatural claims are no more real than the supernatural beliefs of the Mayans and ancient Greeks?
Either salvation is not by faith or Evangelical Christianity is false. My deconversion is absolute proof.
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End of post.
Escaping Christian Fundamentalism 
IMO, you simply shed the indoctrination of FEAR. I fully believe this is what creates the original conversion and keeps believers entwined within “the faith.”
Although not all churches focus on the fear of one’s eternal destiny, the bible story itself definitely lends itself to that conclusion.
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Hi Gary. My name is JT. Is there anyway you can block Christians from responding to me. They’ve really messed me up after reading a bunch of your posts yesterday. The resurrection was on my heavily yesterday and I unfortunately read comments under your posts about skeptics loving to say that the gospels were written late, but we forget that there was an oral tradition before the gospels. I mean that really had me nervous because the Jews were so meticulous and they would’ve been careful not to forget a high impact event like the resurrection. They mentioned Bauckham’s book and also Eric Eve’s book Behind the Gospels.
I’m really nervous that the oral tradition could be accurate and that Jesus resurrected.
Plus, the 1Cor 15 creed probably was accurate too because how could they confuse a living body with a spirit?
Idk this really has me doubting. I know the gospels are contradictory but there could be some accuracy about the resurrection.
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I mean that really had me nervous because the Jews were so meticulous and they would’ve been careful not to forget a high impact event like the resurrection. They mentioned Bauckham’s book and also Eric Eve’s book Behind the Gospels.
If the Jewish Christians were so meticulous about the alleged resurrection…they would have recorded the date. They didn’t! Christians can’t even get their act together regarding the year that this earth-shattering event occurred. 30 CE? 33 CE?? Good grief. Romans remembered and recorded the year of the destruction of Pompeii by the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius but Christians can’t even recall the year, let alone day, that God died. Give me a break.
And let’s talk about the only texts which give us any details of this alleged event: the Gospels. There is nothing meticulous about the Gospels: definitely two and maybe three of the four are blatant works of plagiarism, lifting whole chapters from the Gospel of Mark. For all we know, the Empty Tomb of Arimathea Story was a theological invention of the author of Mark that was embellished by subsequent Gospel authors.
Plus, the 1Cor 15 creed probably was accurate too because how could they confuse a living body with a spirit?
They who? Let me ask it again: Who??? Please provide me with just one undisputed eyewitness testimony of ANYONE from the first century claiming to have seen the walking, talking resurrected corpse of Jesus, and describing this event in detail. You can’t.
It’s a silly, stupid tall tale. Stop worrying about it. There is zero good evidence that the supernatural exists.
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No blog, no way by of responding or to check bona fides. I get the impression this JT character is simply winding you up Gary.
Cut him loose?
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Gary can you block a Christian from responding. I read your oral tradition posts and I read comments underneath and I’m so concerned about the oral tradition being correct because of the resurrection being a high impact event. Have you read Eric Eve’s book Behind the gospels?
Idk I’m really confused because it would’ve been hard to confuse a living body with a hallucination. Plus, they were Bart Ehrman isn’t well versed in the oral tradition and should stick to textual criticism.
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Read here: Do Miracles Prove the Existence of Jesus Christ?
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Thank you. That’s my issue though thinking the supernatural could exist because of ppl seeing ghosts and spiritual encounters. I keep wondering if the soul exists.
I’ve seen a video on YouTube where this guy was saying this person dead person’s spirit materialized into a physical body again. I was like darn is this what happened to Jesus? lol.
I think by my me reading and watching things about the supernatural influences me unfortunately.
Which article really explains the oral tradition? The comments under your post about the oral tradition were honestly affecting me. I mean we don’t really know what was being said before the gospels were written. Maybe 1 cor 15 is an example.
Idk if the Jews were really good at memorizing high impact events but I mean maybe they experience something. I mean wouldn’t be difficult to confuse a living body as a hallucination?
Or maybe since the creation story and original sin aren’t true that it doesn’t matter if Jesus died, but liberal Christians still believe Jesus was god and died for sins even if genesis 1-11 is metaphor.
With the miracles post, I was becoming a Calvinist so they would say that miracles don’t happen today because we’re in a different dispensation. The last miracle was the disciples speaking in languages that they previously didn’t know at Pentecost.
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Yes, I grew up 3 point Calvinist and heard the same excuse for why no great miracles occur today. It is ad hoc (made up to excuse the absence of great miracles today). After Pentecost, Peter’s shadow was allegedly healing people as Peter passed by them on the street. People had to touch or be touched by Jesus to be healed. Peter could simply cast his shadow on them and heal them! This is evidence of embellishment: the miracles become more and more fantastic as the tall tale progresses.
It is all silly, superstitious nonsense, my friend. No more believable than Hinduism’s elephant-headed god and his miracles.
I think you need to change your perspective on how to look at the evidence for Christianity’s claims. Skeptics are not obligated to disprove each and every miracle claim. Believers are obligated to prove that even ONE alleged miraculous event could not have occurred by a natural process. They can’t do that. They can trot out people who have allegedly been healed of terminal cancer but no one, no one, who has been blown to bits by a bomb has been healed. Ever. No one who has lost an arm or a leg has been made whole. Never happens.
Either Jesus is incapable of doing the hard stuff or Jesus is not performing miracles (and is DEAD).
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You’re right. Yes, Calvinists would mention cessationism as the reason there’s no miracles.
Have you read Eric Eve’s book on the oral tradition? Idk just reading the comments under your posts about the oral tradition really just made me nervous because of Bauckham’s and others arguments. Even though Bauckham has some inconsistencies with the gospel of Matthew calling.
I think it’s nervewrecking that we don’t know what was being said. If they just saw a spirit or an actual body.
The creation story and original sin being false is the only thing that helps but mainline Christians say genesis 1-11 through is metaphor. So, I guess faith is still tenable to them.
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There is no good evidence that the supernatural operates today or in the past within our universe. Stop worrying.
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It’s hard. I had this agnostic friend who’s back to being a believer because of his experience with the holy spirit. He said that he has changed drastically and it’s almost unbelievable. He thinks hell could be eternal or temporary. He’s still figuring things out. He also mentioned how Jesus has been encountering with ppl where his uncle is a missionary at.
Idk that’s why I got concerned with the oral tradition because we don’t know what his followers experienced after he was crucified. I know it could’ve been visionary, but you know as Calvinists, we were taught that Jesus knew from the beginning that he had to come and die for our sins.
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People in all religions experience emotional highs. Superstitions can be very comforting.
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I just need to get over thinking the supernatural exists. I just wonder about the oral tradition because I know that they would’ve remembered a resurrection. I guess what matters is if souls exist.
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JT, so long as you continue to waver back and forth related to your beliefs about Christianity,, you’re going to be in turmoil. You need to take a step in one direction or the other and follow it through. Stop listening to/reading “both sides.” Pick one or the other and focus entirely on that.
Doubt can be one of the biggest destroyers of good intentions.
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I know. It’s hard though. The possibility of being wrong and Jesus could’ve been god. I don’t want to be Christian though. I just feel like something happened for this religion to start.
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Something happened to start every one of the hundreds religions and cults on the planet.
Think about this: Christianity cannot provide even ONE undisputed eyewitness testimony of anyone describing their encounter with a walking, talking resurrected Jesus. Not one.
Superstitious hysteria is the source of Christianity, not an actual body sighting.
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I agree. It’s just the what ifs for me. Like what if we do get an eyewitness account that’s dated right when he died? Impossible I suppose. But whatever was said orally after he died concerns me.
Idk I feel like if the creation story isn’t real like this doesn’t better but liberals still think faith is tenable. That’s why I second guess.
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How much time do you spend worrying about the possibility that Lord Krishna is the one true god and you have rejected him?
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Or what about Zeus and Jupiter? Millions of people believed these gods were to be feared. Why don’t you fear the consequences of not worshipping Zeus or Jupiter?
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I guess because Christianity became a major religion idk. Plus, Jesus historically existed.
I mean you just don’t believe in the supernatural at all? I mean liberals still believe he resurrected. Like why? What did he die for?
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The worship of the gods of the Greek pantheon was the largest religion on earth during the life of Jesus. If people then thought like you do today, they would have gone with Zeus. So going with the largest religion doesn’t seem to be a safe bet.
Yes, Jesus existed. So what? Thousands of human beings throughout human history have claimed to possess supernatural powers.
Why did Jesus die? Answer: For the same reason that David Koresh of the Branch Davidians died: he was delusional and his delusions became so extreme it pissed off the authorities who decided to snuff him out.
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Gary. I forgot to ask. Have you heard of David Rohl? I’m sure you have. He’s saying that he found Joseph’s house in the patterns of evidence documentary. I was thinking Joseph and the others story was fiction. But it seems that Rohl found Joseph’s house at Avaris.
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Just because one (fringe?) archaeologist makes a claim does not make the claim true. What do other archaeologists say about this claim?
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I can’t find anyone debunking Rohl’s finding of Jacob’s house. https://youtu.be/gNXlp93wISw?feature=shared
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You didn’t look hard enough, JT.
Dr. Hector Avalos, Debunking Christianity:
JACOB’S HOUSE IN EGYPT?
“Patterns” (Patterns of Evidence: Exodus, a documentary based on David Rohl’s work) claims that the existence of Jacob is evidenced at Tell el-Dab‘a, the site of the ancient Egyptian city of Avaris in the delta region (on the Pelusiac branch of the Nile).
Tell el-Dab‘a has been excavated by the Austrian archaeologist, Manfred Bietak, since 1966. The site has archaeological remains ranging from about 2000 BCE to 1400 BCE.
A house was found that is similar to what is found in “north Syria” in what is designated as Area F1 stratum d/2, and dated by Bietak to the “end of the 12th Dyn[asty] = ca. 1800 BCE.”[iii] It is described as a Mittelsaal Haus (German for “Middle Hall” because it consists of a hall or courtyard surrounded by rooms), a style that can be found in some parts of Syria.
Rohl makes the bald assertion (at 28:19) that, since Jacob was from north Syria, then he must have had a house like the “Syrian” one found in Egypt.
Making this sort of leap is not only absurd, but also contradicts biblical evidence. What Patterns needs is something that shows that ONLY JACOB could live in such a house. The Bible states that Jacob settled in Goshen, which is too large an area to pinpoint the house of Jacob without more specific evidence.
Lincoln’s Cabin?
Otherwise, it is akin to finding the remains of a cabin in Illinois and declaring that it must be where Lincoln lived without any further evidence of a specific presence of Lincoln in that cabin.
A lot of people lived in cabins in Illinois, even in the vicinity of Lincoln, and so it is a leap to say that a cabin must be that of Lincoln because that is the type of house in which Lincoln would live.
Furthermore, Patterns completely disregards what the Bible says concerning the pattern of habitation that Jacob actually preferred. The family of Jacob represent themselves as shepherds (Genesis 47:3) and Jacob preferred tents as is amply attested in the following passages: (continues)
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Here is a blurb about Rohl’s reputation in the archaeology community. I suggest that we should be very skeptical of any expert who is certain that he is correct and the other 99% of archaeologists are wrong, and what’s more, the other 99% are wrong because they are involved in a conspiracy to maintain the status quo.
From Popular Archaeology:
David Rohl is a British Egyptologist with a reputation for the controversial. Regarded by his colleagues as a maverick, Rohl proposes bold solutions to some of the ancient world’s greatest historical conundrums – many related to the epic stories of the Old Testament. He regards himself as an agnostic, yet he argues for a historical Bible. He accepts that he is a heterodox who does not accept orthodoxy simply because it is the consensus view. Rohl is a fully trained scholar with a degree in Egyptology, ancient history, Levantine archaeology, and the history of ancient Greece, whilst his post-graduate research concentrated on the complex and rarely studied chronology of the Third Intermediate Period in Egypt.
Rohl’s conclusions have been dismissed by academia, mainly on the grounds that they are too bold, too radical and not supported by the evidence. He would disagree with the last sentiment, arguing that most scholars who dismiss his work are not themselves familiar with the material and have not understood his evidence, since they have not actually read his books. He feels they are simply regurgitating an anti-Rohl consensus, which amounts to “we all know he’s wrong”, even though a detailed and thorough critique of his work has never been offered. Many in the general public, on the other hand, have been captivated by his research and, as a result, he has become the de facto leader of a new ‘Bible as history’ movement.
Gary: At the end of the interview, Rohl is asked the following question:
Question 8: Why do you think Egyptologists have not embraced the New Chronology [Rohl’s new timeline for the Exodus]?
David Rohl: Because Egyptian chronology is a very specialist field which most Egyptologists stay well clear of, preferring to accept Professor Kitchen’s chronology, which has been the orthodoxy for decades now. In effect, the Conventional Chronology has been set in stone and there is simply no appetite to re-examine it from the foundations upwards.
Gary: Conspiracy, conspiracy, conspiracy!!! Any time the evidence does not confirm the biblical version of history, conservative Christians scream “conspiracy!” and thereby feel justified in ignoring the evidence that proves the Bible as historically unreliable.
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Yes I read that article by Avalos, but it was the only article I was able to find. It’s crazy know one has done a thorough critique of his books because he obviously thinks he’s correct.
I’ve emailed Dr James Tabor about Rohl and he agrees with his new chronology. I was like wow. Dr. Tabor seems to be rational so I’m surprised. Dr. Tabor also mentioned Dr. Deborah Hurn is the best scholar on the exodus, but I saw that she’s Christian. So, tabor is confusing me.
I thought Rohl found a house that was specifically related to Jacob and Joseph’s story.
Here’s a video:
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I listened to it. A lot of coincidences and very little actual evidence. I left this comment under the video:
Most university educated people trust consensus expert opinion on matters about which they are not experts. Are you an archaeologist? I doubt it. The consensus of archaeologists is that Rohl’s theories on this subject are fringe and unsubstantiated. Don’t believe a claim just because someone is an “expert”. There are always kooks and outliers in every profession. Trust the consensus.
Rohl’s conclusions have been dismissed by academia, mainly on the grounds that they are too bold, too radical and not supported by the evidence.
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I agree. Idk sometimes I have a tough time when ppl say the consensus could be wrong. That’s why I was considering what Rohl was saying and also because he was agnostic and doesn’t have any stakes in Christianity. I was just thinking the house he found was a very specific to Joseph’s story.
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Of course the consensus of experts can be wrong. But they are right much more often than they are wrong, and they are much more often right than the fringe, which is what Mr. Rohl is.
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I understand. Idk why I let Rohl influence me so much. I was really thinking Joseph and others stories were pure myth, but with him finding the house, it just really made me nervous. Then, he supports a new chronology which goes with biblical timeline.
I’ve looked at James Tabor’s material and I couldn’t believe he would agree with Rohl and he mentioned to me that Deborah Hurn is leading expert on the exodus.
Gary, I just don’t want to be wrong. I don’t want to be Christian at all, but idk why I listen to these ppl and there are so many ppl agreeing with Rohl and they’ll say we’re wrong.
I guess I struggle with this stuff because I think that the supernatural could possibly exist because of ghosts and demons and other weird things ppl exist. So, my mind thinks what if Yahweh was interacting with these biblical ppl.
Because that YouTube video I sent, the YouTuber is an unspecified theist and after looking at Rohl’s research, he thinks Joseph could’ve existed.
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Unless you are yanking Gary’s chain and being a troll, if you don’t “want” to be a Christian then stop whining and recognise it is all simply a load of bollocks.
End of story
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That is incredibly rude to assume someone is a troll. Everyone on the internet is a troll. I’m a genuine person who is truly struggling and I also don’t want to be Christian, but I still have fear and I get confused when ppl like Rohl say they have evidence for biblical events. So, of course, I’m going to be nervous. Especially when I read comments under Rohl’s videos and ppl agree with him and say that skeptics aren’t willing to look at his evidence.
So, don’t just automatically someone is a troll.
I can’t even express my concerns. It’s not easy for everyone to let go of this horrible religion. So, I do have what ifs.
Plus, hector Avalos seems to be the only one who resounded to Rohl.
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Fear? What the hell do you fear?
How did you come by Gary’s blog?
Why are you even discussing this with Gary?
Why do you have no blog of your own?
If you truly have to ask about Rohl then you are trolling Gary.
Please quote or reference Avalos’ support for Rohl.
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I meant responded. Excuse me. I came across Gary’s blog via recovering from religion’s resources. So, unless Gary doesn’t want to respond to me anymore, then I’ll stop messaging. It seems like you’re trolling because no one asked for your input. The only ppl I wanted to talk with was Gary and Nan.
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It’s an open blog. If you want a private tete a tete email Gary.
Again, what is there to fear?
If your your faith hinges on the veracity of the Exodus then you are xevinitekynwindibg up. Gary.
So what did Avalos say about Rohl?
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…. winding up Gary
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IMO, Gary is trying to help someone who is struggling. For some –in fact I would daresay to many— it is NOT cut and dried as to whether they believe the Christian story or not. In actual fact, most every person who has LEFT the faith has struggled — primarily due to indoctrination related to what will happen to them if they quit believing.
Cut the guy some slack, Ark.
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Well, you’ve been there done that, but with so many personas turning up and giving Gary grief I reserve the right to withhold my love(sic) for now.
Still waiting for a response from him/her regarding Avalos and Rohl.
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Hey Gary. There were so many comments on my email I sent by why we need a savior. I couldn’t even read the comments. Christians still say we’re sinners. Then liberals don’t think the historicity of the Bible doesn’t matter. All that matters to them is the spiritual. They say the authors weren’t historians. Idk it’s just tough because they make me question the spiritual. I had one agnostic guy tell me that cs Lewis was like god could’ve used evolution and that he imparted souls on Adam and Eve
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What evidence do you see that the supernatural operates within our universe today?
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I mean all we have is anecdotal evidence. Idk if souls exist but ppl seem to think that humans are special since we’re worried about the afterlife and are conscious about what happens afterwards. Some ppl claim to astral project and they say ppl who haven’t experienced can’t say it doesn’t happen.
Idk I’m just really struggling because liberals say the historicity of the Bible doesn’t matter. Only the spiritual but I mean idk what ppl are experiencing.
How can you be a liberal Christian and still think hell is real? The Bible has a lot of rules which seem to say that you must show that the holy spirit has changed you by your works. You can’t just be a liberal and still think drinking or listening to secular content is okay to do.
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Provide good, undisputed evidence that the supernatural is at work today in our universe. I dare you.
Idk if souls exist but ppl seem to think that humans are special since we’re worried about the afterlife and are conscious about what happens afterwards.
Human beings are a superstitious species. For millennia most humans believed that invisible spirits cause illnesses. Viruses, bacteria, and gene mutations cause illnesses, not evil spirits. We have proven that superstition false. For millennia most humans believed that droughts and floods were caused by invisible gods. Barometric pressure changes and other climatic events cause droughts and floods, not invisible superheroes. We have proven this superstition false also. And there are many more examples of science proving long-held, widely held beliefs (superstitions) as false.
Stop being afraid of ancient superstitions! There is no good evidence that the supernatural operates within our universe.
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This is why I question the spiritual https://youtu.be/Atnwt9SM7N0?feature=shared
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Sorry, but I don’t have the time to watch your 18 minute video, JT. There are MILLIONS and millions of supernatural claims, some of them really, really fantastical. However, not one single one of them has been documented by an internationally recognized and respected society of scientists who admit that, here on our planet, the laws of physics have been violated. Not one. There may be speculation that events in black holes far out in space violate the laws of physics but nothing here on earth.
When you or any other believer (you are still a believer, JT) can provide me with a case which scientists have thoroughly investigated and they have concluded that this event did indeed violate the laws of physics, then I’ll take the supernatural more seriously. Until then, it is nonsense. Pure, unadulterated, superstitious, nonsense.
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Here is the thing, JT: Even if I were able to completely debunk the supernatural claims in your video, it wouldn’t be enough. Believers would just say, “Ok. Well, maybe those two miracle claims are false, but what about THIS claim?” And on and on it would go. You believers would never be satisfied until I disprove every miracle claim ever made in human history!
So don’t ask me to disprove any miracle claims. It would be a waste of my time. Instead, ask Christians to provide ONE miracle claim which couldn’t possibly be due to a natural cause, hysteria, an exaggeration, or a blatant lie.
Good luck!
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Thanks. I really don’t think I’m a believer. I suffer with what ifs. I don’t want Christianity to be true. I don’t look at it as something positive.
Idk I was just trying to understand if souls exist especially with ppl verifying information after regaining consciousness after experiencing an NDE. I mean they say Jesus appears in ndes more than other divine figures. My agnostic Christian friend was like Jesus even appears to unreached ppl.
That’s all I’m worried about. I still question if souls exist or if consciousness is separate from the body.
It’s just hard because I just want to be certain there’s no hell.
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Yes, those of us who grew up in fundamentalist Christianity have a harder time leaving the cult than do liberals because the fear of Hell has been so deeply ingrained in our brains.
I urge you to study the origin of the concept of eternal damnation. If you do, you will find that it was not originally found in ancient Judaism. It is a concept adopted into Judaism from surrounding cultures, in particular, Greece. You might read Bart Ehrman’s book on this issue:
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Thank you. It’s sad that I’ve read this book and I’ve watched YouTube videos about the origins of hell and I still worry.
I can’t really articulate my thoughts. My agnostic turned Christian internet friend lol would always tell me that he hates when skeptics say there’s no evidence for the supernatural. He would be like there are loads anecdotal evidence, but skeptics dismiss it.
I’ve let this guy influence my thinking so much. I have stopped talking to him though since he’s Christian again.
He was saying Jesus appears in NDEs more than any other gods and that Jesus comes to unreached ppl. Idk if this is true and I can’t know, but it does concern me.
I wouldn’t even worry about this if it wasn’t for ppl who’ve had ndes verifying info that they shouldn’t know. Like this one patient who was unconscious when he was admitted knew where the nurse placed his dentures and he knew the exact nurse who took them out lol. I’ve read other things online too.
That’s what makes me question if the supernatural exists.
I know you don’t think the supernatural exists but I mean how do we explain these weird phenomena. I mean ppl say Jesus has actually come to them.
Idk anecdotal evidence just makes me question because I feel like we can’t replicate this stuff or test like skeptics would like.
It’s really the spiritual that gets me. Liberal Christians still believe even if the Bible isn’t historical and I’m like damn are they right
I’m not a troll Gary. I just have no one. I have no community anymore. I know about the origins of hell but ppl still experience hell in ndes
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My agnostic turned Christian internet friend lol would always tell me that he hates when skeptics say there’s no evidence for the supernatural. He would be like there are loads anecdotal evidence, but skeptics dismiss it.
I’m always careful to say that there is no good evidence that the supernatural operates within our universe. Since scientists haven’t determined the origin of the universe, the existence of the universe can be used as evidence for a supernatural creator. But that doesn’t mean that creator, if he, she, or it exists, was Jesus of Nazareth. So give me an example of good evidence that the supernatural operates in our universe.
He was saying Jesus appears in NDEs more than any other gods and that Jesus comes to unreached ppl. Idk if this is true and I can’t know, but it does concern me.
Christianity is the largest superstition on the planet, so of course, there are going to be more alleged Jesus appearances. The second largest religion, Islam, does not have a god with a body. Neither does Judaism. So the followers of these religions are not going to claim that Allah or Yahweh appeared to them.
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I see what you mean. But I mean what do you to say though about Jesus coming to unreached ppl who never heard of him? Wouldn’t that mean he’s god? Idk I just don’t understand with with agnostic turned Christian guy he was like he thinks the holy spirit has changed him and he let go many of his vices instantly. I’m not sure how that happens.
I mean wouldn’t Jesus appearing to someone be evidence of the supernatural. He was telling me how his missionary uncle said that this Muslim man encountered Jesus and he converted. Something about he was praying to Issa the prophet.
I mean I just don’t know why I consider spiritual experiences as evidence.
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But I mean what do you to say though about Jesus coming to unreached ppl who never heard of him? …He was telling me how his missionary uncle said that this Muslim man encountered Jesus and he converted. Something about he was praying to Issa the prophet.
Jesus is a revered prophet in Islam, so claiming that a Muslim has never heard of Jesus is false.
People convert from one religion to another ALL THE TIME. And when they do convert, they feel so wonderful; they experience “miracles”. Christian to Islam. Islam to Christian. Christian to Buddhist. They ALL have emotional experiences, sometimes so emotional they they are delusional.
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Hundreds of thousands of people, including sane people, experience delusions. So wild claims involving the supernatural prove nothing. You need to look for claims which could not possibly have a natural explanation. For example, a man is blown into millions of pieces, witnessed and filmed by multiple people. Someone, on camera says a prayer to Jesus for healing, and the next thing we see on screen are all the body pieces flying back together. Seconds later, the man starts speaking, praising Lord Jesus for healing him, for making his body whole again and bring him back from the dead.
But clear cut miracles like that never happen, do they? To me that is undisputable proof that the supernatural does not operate in our universe. Either that or Jesus is lazy: he doesn’t do the hard stuff.
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But as ex Calvinists we would say that kind of miracle stopped after the Pentecost right? I mean the only supernatural thing would be the holy spirit transforming us right? I mean they would tell me that we can’t expect Jesus to do these miracles nowadays.
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It is an ad hoc (made up) excuse for the lack of big miracles today.
But where is the evidence of ANY big miracles ever occurring? The 6 day creation? The Flood? The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah? The Exodus? The death of all first born Egyptians? The drowning of a large Egyptian army? There is zero solid evidence of any of these great events. And what about the miracles of Jesus? Did he move a mountain or destroy a Roman army to prove he was who he claimed to be? Nope. He healed people. He was a first century healer, no different than the Pentecostal preacher in your town. It was all bs, just like the alleged healings of Pentecostal TV evangelists are bs. It is nothing more than religious hysteria. If Jesus were really a god he would have performed a supernatural miracle that left no doubt in anyone’s mind who he was. So why didn’t he? Was it because he wanted people to believe in him “by fath”…. Or because he was just another delusional peddler of superstitious nonsense?
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lol. Yea. You know they would say he would want true believers who don’t need evidence or god doesn’t have to prove himself. Or he already gave us enough evidence. He leaves it up to us to spread the gospel to show our devotion.
Idk I guess he would also say some would still not believe if they have 100% proof he was god. So, I guess he just wanted dedicated believers doing good works who have been regenerated.
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Bullshit. It is a clever con. Christians have constructed an undefeatable paradigm: Jesus the resurrected Christ won’t perform a miracle for you to prove his existence and his powers because he wants you to believe in his existence and his supernatural powers by faith.
This is no different than the clever child who has invented an imaginary friend. When asked to prove that his invisible friend exists, the child responds: My friend won’t do any magic tricks for you to prove his existence because he doesn’t like being put under pressure to perform.
What is interesting is that the Bible itself commands believers to test the existence of the spirit of Jesus: Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God.
So if we follow the teachings of the Bible we should test EVERY spirit to see if it is from God (the Creator). If the spirit is truly of God it will do what? Answer: confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. The spirit has to SPEAK!
Dear Christians: Test the spirit you believe is living inside you! If it does not SPEAK in an audible voice, it is a false spirit.
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Yes I agree. Idk I feel like I’m getting a lot of theologies mixed up. Calvinists would say we’re in the age of cessationism. So, I think the only thing they’ll say is miraculous is the holy spirit regenerating ppl to believe. Other denominations prob believe that healings happen today. I mean if someone says Jesus came to them in an NDE or in reality, wouldn’t that be miraculous?
Idk ndes, ghosts, etc is what makes me question the supernatural.
But I understand that it would be crazy for a god to use evolution as a process for life to begin.
I just don’t want to be wrong, Gary.
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I just don’t want to be wrong, Gary.
I understand that feeling. When I deconverted in the spring of 2014, I too feared the consequences of abandoning Christianity. But this blog helped me get over it. I no longer fear Hell. Not one bit. Here is my recommendation. Start reading my blog posts back in early 2014 when I was still a believer. I will give a link below to a post in February, 2014. Read it and then read the next, and then the next.
You are brainwashed, JT. Just as I was brainwashed. You can’t get rid of all that brainwashing overnight. It will take time, maybe even years, like me.
You have thousands of posts ahead of you. Daunting task. But it is all I can think of to help you. By reading all these posts, you will watch me transform from an ardent, self-assured believer, to a fearful, questioning ex-believer, and finally to a confident, unafraid, free-thinker (an atheist). Good luck!
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Great recommendation!
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Thank you so much. No matter what ark thinks, I am not a troll. I’m a real person who is truly struggling with the fear of being wrong.
I think the only thing that makes me question is how liberals can still believe, even though the Bible is myth or fallible. They make it seem that there is still a reason why Jesus resurrected. That’s my only concern because if the creation story isn’t real real, I just don’t really see a reason why Jesus would have to die. but they’ll say it’s all spiritual. God is just a loving God or whatever.
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Start reading.
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I’ve been reading the blogs. But I get tempted to read the comments and then I get confused reading the Christian comments under your posts. “Oh the disciples wouldn’t have created an individual resurrecting. They weren’t expecting him to die. The contractions don’t matter”.
I don’t think I can read the posts. Maybe I should I just stop worrying about it.
I’m just afraid of dying and being wrong. I mean Christians always say we’re wrong. They write 700-1000 page books on the resurrection. It’s a lot.
I thank you for your help.
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JT, reading the “comments “ of others is essentially a losing battle because everyone has an opinion. You need to read full books written by individuals who have studied Christianity and can provide history, scriptures, and arguments to validate their perspective. If you’re not willing to do that, you’re going to remain confused and worried and fearful. And it will be your own fault.
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I know. I just read one comment by one of the Christians saying that they were more qualified to understand Bible than Gary because he actually has a degree in the OT.
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You need to understand something, JT. When someone says that he or she has a degree in the OT or the NT, that means that they are an expert of the texts in those collections of ancient books. They can give expert opinion about authorship and date of authorship, they can give expert opinion on translations of particular words and phrases in those ancient texts. They can give expert opinion regarding social context of the texts. What they cannot give expert opinion on are alleged supernatural events detailed in those texts.
There is no such thing as an expert in the supernatural.
The Bible, Old and New, is a mix of history, religion, superstition, and make believe. One must keep this in mind when reading this book. Treat the Bible as you would any other ancient text. Accept as historical fact those biblical claims which the consensus of historians agree are historical (King Ahaz, King Hezekiah, etc.) and remain undecided on claims which historians have not been able to confirm with evidence (the existence of the biblical King David and King Solomon, the Exodus, the Conquest of Canaan, etc.)
What you will find is that there is little to no evidence for any of the supernatural claims in the entire Bible.
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One last thing and I’ll leave it there because this is what has been bothering me. Have you seen Patterns of Evidence: Exodus? I think I mentioned David Rohl finding Joseph’s house and he argues for the new chronology. How come he found his house but we can’t say that David existed? I mean I can’t find any secular scholar talking about this archaeological find besides debunking Christianity. I guess Rohl makes me nervous because he’s agnostic and it’s like he’s trying to say the exodus really happened. I think I read in a comment that the Egyptians could’ve purposely deleted the exodus record.
I know you said he’s fringe. Maybe I listen to Christians too much.
I’m going to read your posts but it’s a lot. I feel like I’m just confused.
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I meant to say that my internet friend was saying that Jesus was coming to unreached ppl who never heard of him. The Muslim story was just someone talking about their encounter with Jesus.
Idk the veridical ndes are really concerning to me.
Idk what to do. It’s like so many ppl who have experiences. Do we just dismiss them and say it’s delusion?
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No, you make THEM prove their experience was real.
In western culture, the onus is on the person or persons making a claim, not on skeptics who question the veracity of the claim. Do you believe this?
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I’ve been reading your articles. They’ve been helpful. Idk I find myself really wondering if there’s a general god that we don’t know about. Idk ppl claim to see spirits and ghosts and it just makes me think about an afterlife.
One of my atheist friends told me about a young boy able to name all of the parts of the WW two fighter jet. He was like he has flown one before he is nowhere near the age of knowing about WW2.
I’ve seen videos online about children seeing deceased loved ones spirits that they never met in real life. I know Christians would say that’s demonic.
So, idk this is where I get confused because I feel like skeptics can be dismissive of anecdotes but they can have some validity.
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You are doing things in reverse.
Instead of trying to disprove every miracle claim, you need to ask your Christian friend to provide ONE, just one, example of a miracle which could not possibly have a natural explanation.
The boy in your story who knew all the aircraft parts could have had access to the internet, a book, or a veteran grandfather, and have learned this information from that source. Ask your Christian friend to provide evidence of one major limb amputee or one beheading victim whom Jesus has restored to complete health.
Bring it back and share the evidence for that case here with us. Or let your Christian friend present it here. Tell him: A bunch of atheists dare you to present evidence for a miracle which could not possibly have a natural explanation. WE DARE HIM TO DO IT!
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I know, but that’s what I’m trying to say. How are we supposed to test the supernatural if it isn’t replicable? I mean anecdotes are all we have. You have researcher like Dr Bruce Greyson from uva who has these meta analyses on reincarnation and past life memories.
I mean is it not possible that a spirit could tell a child info or that a persons consciousness during an NDE allows them to be able to verify info that they shouldn’t know?
I mean I was really thinking souls couldn’t exist, but I really don’t know.
What would you say if a child received info from a deceased loved one’s spirit that they didn’t know previously?
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Think about what you just wrote: anecdotes are all we have!!
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I mean there could be some validity to the stories. I mean you all have never heard of a child or anyone say they see spirits?
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If YOU believe there is validity to the stories, then you might as well give up trying to find the TRUTH. So long as you let these “possibilities” influence your thinking, you’re going to keep going around and around in circles.
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I think what I’m trying to understand is how do you all know for sure that there’s no spiritual realm? Because it can’t be measured, it’s out of the realm of possibility? I mean there are so many ppl who have supernatural experiences. I mean how can we test their experiences? I’m not a troll and I’m not a fool (which is harsh that Ark would say that). I’m just expressing myself. I don’t want to cold towards the possibility of spirits and ghosts existing if this could be a sign to show me that “hey hell could still be real”.
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ANYONE can SAY they had a “supernatural experience.” But can they prove it without a shadow of doubt? Can they duplicate it? You are questioning things that cannot be proved and instead are simply taking people’s word for it.
Ask yourself … what would convince you that a person had such an experience? Surely not just because they SAID so!!
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I feel like the supernatural can’t be tested, replicated, etc. All we have are ppl’s stories. The only reason I consider this is when they report info that they shouldn’t know. I read where this one child communicated with his deceased grandma’s spirit and she told him her old name before she changed it. The child reported this to his mom and she was shocked because she never told him his grandmas old first name.
I mean idk do we just automatically dismiss anecdotes.
I mean something has to be going on.
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“All we have are ppl’s stories” — BINGO!
“I read where …” Does reading about it make it so?
“do we just automatically dismiss anecdotes” — Yes. People can and do say all sorts of things — but this doesn’t make it so. Unless you personally experience something that you can’t explain, then take their stories with a grain of salt.
Look, JT, it’s apparent you want to believe there’s something more. And so long as you feel this way, nothing anyone can say will convince you otherwise. You have to make up your own mind.
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How can we know anything with 100% certainty? It is impossible. You have to look at the evidence and make a decision: does the preponderance of the evidence support the hypothesis (claim) for me to believe it?
(Ignore Ark. I will delete his insulting comments.)
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Muslims, Hindus, and Mormons use the same reasoning for their miracle claims. They are anecdotal claims from superstitious, gullible minds. I demand evidence, not anecdotes. You should do the same.
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How do you know the child didn’t receive the information from a living source?
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Yea I understand what you both are saying. I do. Idk. Maybe I just second guess too much. Maybe I’m thinking there’s a general creator and there could be a hell we don’t know about.
I hope I don’t have an experience because no one would believe me lol.
I really don’t know what to do to get evidence of these things. I mean I didn’t souls existed but I really don’t know.
I just don’t want to be wrong.
I guess when ppl change their lives I just think they really had an authentic experience.
There are just so many weird things going on.
I mean do you need a spirit to come to you physically? What if someone is a rational person and they see a spirit?
I guess I need to wonder if souls can exist after we die
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Keep reading the old blog posts. You’ve got a couple thousand more to read.
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I mean am I being irrational? Didn’t you once consider anecdotes as evidence? I feel like if more ppl say they experience spirits the more likely they are experiencing them idk.
I do not see how we can test at all unless I experience it personally.
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Just because millions of superstitious people believe that millions of superstitious events have occurred in human history is not good evidence that they have. I personally require a higher standard of evidence to believe very unusual claims. You should too.
If you are unwilling to require a higher standard of evidence for claims that the ghost of a first century peasant is performing magic tricks and faith healings in the 21st century, I cannot help you. Sorry.
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No. I’m not really focusing on Jesus. I’m just saying in general. Spirits of deceased loved ones visiting children.
I mean evidence would you need because I mean nan said that I would have to have a personal spiritual experience to be convinced but if I told my story, ppl wouldn’t accept it as evidence. So, what is good evidence when we can’t go inside someone’s mind or body to see if they’re experiencing spirits.
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You must decide this issue for yourself. Tying yourself in knots about how other people come to their beliefs is not a good use of your time.
Raise your standard of evidence for all unusual claims or be forever doomed to fear and uncertainty.
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I know. I’m asking though what evidence do you need? I’m not thinking about Jesus. Just spirits and ghosts. A spirit would have to come to you in person? If so, that’s what other ppl are saying that’s happening to them.
I just don’t know how someone could prove the supernatural realm to a materialist.
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I mean you have ppl saying children see spirits of deceased loved ones that they never met. Then, they receive info that they shouldn’t know.
I mean do we need to get recordings of spirits? Because I mean I’ve seen paranormal videos on YouTube but who knows.
I guess do I need to wonder if souls or spirits can exist
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JT, read Gary’s first sentence again. And again. And again.
”You must decide this issue for yourself.”
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I know. It’s just scary you all. I’m kinda against Christianity so I don’t want it to be true at all. I don’t think I’m a person who’s willing for it to be proven.
So maybe that’s why I’m more so concerned if the supernatural exists.
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I was reading comments under the recent Paul and Plato post. It was kinda confusing about if the gospels were influenced by the Greeks, why would the appearances transition from bodily to shadow? It’s like there’s always a response from Christians. Saying that jesus wouldn’t have had tea with the Jews or something. Idk. It’s confusing. The 1 cor 15 is the earliest source I mean idk if we can say if it was bodily or not.
That’s why I’ve been questioning ghosts and spirits since ppl seem to see them today.
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@jt.
Yiu seem constantly confused.
Perhaps this state is a neurological condition and requires medical attention?
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Yea i do have ocd and it makes me want to be 100% certain. I’m looking for a new therapist.
It’s hard because these Christians say they have textual evidence and I get nervous about the oral tradition of what was said when Jesus died.
Idk it’s just really tough. Gary has so many posts and I get tempted to read the comments.
I just don’t want to be wrong Ark and I just keep thinking about supernatural experiences ppl have of seeing ghosts and I’m just like could he have resurrected. Idk.
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Keep reading posts. You are brainwashed. Reading thousands of posts debunking the Christian supernatural claims, day after day, month after month, is your best hope of escaping the mind control of this cult. Read the comments. Stop whining and start reading.
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Well I don’t want to whine but the Christian comments do make me question. That’s why I really just want to read the post but I get tempted. Idk it’s so much info.
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My mom just told me that she and her friend saw two ghosts one night going home. She almost hit one of them and she remembers it wearing jeans with suspenders and a red plaid shirt. This right here is what makes me nervous about their being an afterlife and a hell. She wasn’t under the influence either. I just don’t understand.
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Since the fear of hell is one of your main concerns, I also suggest these two books.
The Formation of Hell by Alan E. Bernstein
The History of Hell by Alice K. Turner
I consulted both of these for my own book.
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Unless this individual is a few sandwiches short of a picnic this jt person is a troll and is winding you up, Gary.
You are likely being played.
Every time you make a point jt invariably includes the self deprecating and farking annoying “IDK…” then rambles on in the same whining passive aggressive manner as he/ she has done from the beginning.
If this turns out to be a genuine case the I will apologize unreservedly and strongly recommend psychological counselling. However, after reading some of the indoctrinated arsehats that have sullied your blog with their disingenious ignorant crap over the years I reserve the right to be very wary of grizzling faux sycophants like jt.
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