Gary: Do you perceive the presence of Jesus in your heart?
Christian: Yes, in the sense of the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer. I’ve thought of it more as a sort of uniting of our souls with the Spirit metaphysically, rather than only the heart in the literal sense.
Gary: If you say that you can “perceive” the presence of Jesus, you are claiming that you can sense his presence through your senses. Can you see Jesus? No, he is allegedly invisible. Can you touch Jesus? No, he is allegedly a spirit. Can you hear Jesus? No, he allegedly only speaks in a “still” small voice (inaudible). Can you smell Jesus? No. Can you taste Jesus? Of course not. If you say that you have a sixth sense that allows you to perceive the presence of Jesus, please provide good evidence that such a sense exists.
So when you say that you perceive the presence of Jesus, exactly how is that possible?
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End of post.
Escaping Christian Fundamentalism 
The best that I’ve come to understand, it seems that they appeal to something like Sensus divinitatis.
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Yes, but can they prove it exists? No. It is a matter of faith (hope in the invisible).
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the main problem I see with something like sensus divinitatis is that if we have it then it doesn’t seem to be very reliable. Billions of people and they cannot agree on what god(s) exist, nor can they agree on what the gods want.
If we really had a genuine sense of the divine I would expect that we’d come to a more unified understanding of God over time. That doesn’t happen.
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Very true, although Christians will blame Satan for tricking non-Christians into worshipping other gods. But what is odd is that even Christians of the same Christian denomination will be “led by the Lord” in very separate ways, for example, in church splits, which seem to happen all the time in evangelical and Protestant churches/denominations.
So following the guidance of the “spiritus divinitus” is not a reliable method of truth discovery (ie. the Holy Spirit has a terrible batting average).
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“Very true, although Christians will blame Satan for tricking non-Christians into worshipping other gods”
So people have a hard time telling the difference between Satan, God, and other gods, right? Sp how do they know they got it right?
“So following the guidance of the “spiritus divinitus” is not a reliable method of truth discovery”
Amen to that brother.
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Smell? Taste? Can you smell or taste love? No. Come on, Gary. There are many things about our life experiences that do not cross over into the sensory areas of our lives.
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How do you know that someone loves you?
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She jumps on the bed in the morning and licks my face!
😉
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That’s like asking me how I know that you love anyone besides yourself, and how any man knows his wife loves him, and children know their parents love them. How can any of us know for sure that another loves us. Mere actions? Mere words? Combinations of both? You can’t smell it, and my farts don’t prove it either way. So, even YOU have to rely on something within you to know of another’s love for you that is beyond sensory perceptions. What is it called? Intuition? Is it something that is beyond labels? All we can say for sure is that it’s there, and it gives to us assurances sometimes defies reasonable descriptors that provide that cozy little sense of smug knowledge.
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definition of love: an intense feeling of deep affection.
How do you know that someone loves you? How do you know that someone has [intense feelings of deep affection] for you? Please give specific examples.
I know that my wife and children have intense feelings of deep affection for me because:
–they tell me they love me verbally which I perceive through my sense of hearing.
–they tell me they love me in cards and notes which I perceive through my sense of sight.
–they demonstrate they love me by frequent kind actions done for my benefit which I perceive through my sense of sight.
–they hug or kiss me which I perceive through my sense of touch.
So how do you perceive the presence of Jesus within you? How do you know that you have a personal relationship with Jesus of Nazareth?
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I asked you first. Also, appealing to a dictionary definition from a source that is not intended to be an exhaustive exploration of all that comprises our humanity in this life is less than impressive.
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How can any of us know for sure that another loves us. Mere actions? Mere words? Combinations of both?
I answered your question: I can know that my family has intense deep affection [love] for me by their words and deeds which I perceive through my five senses. Now, please answer my question: How do you perceive the presence of Jesus within you?
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No. You did NOT answer my question. You answered with the very things I said do NOT answer it. They can apply those actions toward you out of a sense of duty, or some other mental process that YOU cannot prove as being love. So, PROVE how you know they “love” you? People lie all the time, so mere words don’t mean anything either.
You can either answer this or not…or won’t…
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Yes, you are correct. Humans can feign affection so let me rephrase. I know that my family behaves and communicates in ways that I perceive, rightly or wrongly, are demonstrations of affection. Why do you believe that Jesus presently, during your life, demonstrates affection to you?
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Christian responding to my above question on a Christian blog:
“In terms of feeling the presence of the Holy Spirit, for me it’s an intellectual acknowledgement of His presence, which causes me to sense His being with me. Difficult to explain the sensation. It’s like a knowing. I’ll have to think of the best way to describe it. But, this is my personal experience. It would be interesting to know how other people experience it. How is it for you?”
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/chorusinthechaos/the-metaverse-the-destruction-of-a-person-and-the-christian-dilemma/#comment-6060919906
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Keywords: “personal experience,” There is no reality. It’s all “experience,” i.e. feeeeling.
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