Gary, I Doubt You Could Go Toe to Toe With A Knowledgeable Christian Apologist

Gary: Is it possible for Jesus to live in your heart? In a recent conversation with a Christian family member, I presented overwhelming evidence that demonstrates that the evidence for the supernatural claims of Christianity is very weak and full of baseless assumptions. My family member matter-of-factly replied: “I don’t care. I know Jesus was resurrected because he lives in my heart. And he has lived in my heart since I was a small child.” How do you counter that?

Anthony Costello, Christian apologist: I would counter your claim with the Modal Ontological Argument. How would you counter that?

But seriously, the idea that you have “overwhelming evidence” for anything is itself pretty laughable (or arrogant) don’t you think? Hume’s critique of miracles was refuted in its own day (https://www.classicapologet…, not to mention it has been shown over and over again to be logically fallacious. That said, you may feel you have overwhelming evidence vis a vis your Christian family member, but I doubt you could go toe-to-toe with someone who actually has knowledge of the arguments. Would you be willing to engage with someone like Tim McGrew on the issue of miracles? I doubt it.

Now, the real question to ask anyone is Why do you believe what you believe? Some people may be able to give better answers than others, and while that will play a role in epistemic justification, it doesn’t play any role in whether or not the actual beliefs are true. You seem to not fully grasp the difference between knowledge and justification. Further, in assuming that if someone believes something from a young age, you also show your own ignorance of informal fallacies. Just because a belief is formed at a young age, has no bearing on whether it is veridical or not. If you think it does, you commit the genetic fallacy. After all, at what age did you learn that “2+2 = 4?”

As for me, I came to faith in Jesus Christ at the age of 34, while training for Army Special Forces. I was at the absolute height of my mental and physical capacities, a real self-made man. Those where the conditions under which I had a vision of Jesus Christ that totally transformed my life. Further, I was fully aware of my surroundings (I was at Parkview Church in Orland Park, IL, standing next to my future wife in the Mezzanine level of the Church). I was not under the influence of any mind-altering substances, nor was I looking for any encounter with God, etc., In fact, the only reason I was at the Church the day I had that vision of Christ, was because I was interested in the girl (who later became my wife) who had invited me to come.

Look, maybe you are new to Christian thought. Maybe you don’t read a lot of philosophy of religion. I don’t know. But if you think you are smart because you can engage with a family member who happens to be a bit undereducated in critical thinking or in arguments for theism, or for Christianity specifically, then you may want to take a step back and first assess whether or not your family member is really representative of the entire Christian community, both past and present. As someone who has studied philosophy, theology, apologetics and history for over 10 years now, I can truly say that your comment here is pretty weak, and it shows ignorance.

Thus, I will leave you with this since you challenged the notion that the non-natural, or supernatural, can exist. Enjoy.

Gary: Thank you so much for responding to my comment.

First, you must understand that I view your belief system as a cult. I am not trying to be mean, just honest. I tell you this because it will help you understand my responses to your statements. People who are in cults are so deeply indoctrinated (brain-washed, some would say) that using evidence to rescue them from the cult is almost always futile. The best method to help someone in a cult is not to challenge their beliefs head on but to encourage the cult member to use reason and critical thinking skills to evaluate all claims (including my claims!).

“I would counter your claim with the Modal Ontological Argument. How would you counter that?“

One of the most common strategies used by Christians apologists today to defend (protect) their supernatural belief system is to use philosophical arguments. This has become so popular, that many Christian apologists are obtaining philosophy degrees for this very purpose. They know that if they can get the skeptic off into the tall grass of philosophy, they no longer have to discuss the evidence for virgin births, walking on water, and resurrected corpses. It is a brilliant strategy…if the skeptic buys into it. But my response is to ignore it. If the Christian apologist complains, I respond with this: Modern, educated people do not need a degree in philosophy to reject fantastical supernatural claims. We can reject such claims without another second’s thought simply because they violate the known laws of physics. Can I state as a fact that the laws of physics are inviolable? No. But as a general rule, non-scientists are safe to assume that the entire universe operates under the rules of physics. We don’t need to worry that gravity will take a vacation tomorrow. The laws of physics are extremely reliable.

But seriously, the idea that you have “overwhelming evidence” for anything is itself pretty laughable (or arrogant) don’t you think?

Evidence: an item or information proffered to make the existence of a fact more or less probable. Evidence can take the form of testimony, documents, photographs, videos, voice recordings, DNA testing, or other tangible objects.

What evidence do Christians have for their principal supernatural claim; the supernatural claim upon which even they admit their belief system rises or falls: the bodily resurrection of Jesus? Let’s take a look: Do Christians have photographs of this event? No. Video or voice recordings? No. DNA testing? No. Tangible objects from this alleged event? No. But Christians do have testimony and documents…or do they??

Christians claim that they have eyewitness testimony from multiple sources contained in five books (the Gospels and the Book of Acts) written by two eyewitnesses and two close associates of eyewitnesses. The problem for this claim is this: The eyewitness status of the documents and testimonies is DISPUTED! Now, Christians will try to convince the skeptic that they (the non-scholar, non-historian Christian) has researched this issue extensively and can provide excellent evidence that these documents ARE historically reliable, eyewitness accounts. Sorry, that doesn’t cut it. Disputed eyewitness testimony is not strong evidence. If the experts cannot agree on the eyewitness status of the alleged eyewitness, the statements in question are suspect. Period. Disputed eyewitness testimony is not good evidence. For example, if someone claims to be an eyewitness to a car accident, but multiple experts are of the opinion that this alleged witness was 1,000 miles away on the date of the accident, this person’s testimony is not going to hold much weight.

And we aren’t discussing disputed eyewitness testimony to a car accident, are we! We are talking about disputed eyewitness testimony to the most fantastical claim ever made in human history: that a three day brain dead corpse was reanimated and transformed into a “heavenly” (other-worldly, alien, extra-terrestrial) body which appeared to multiple groups and crowds, including one crowd of over 500 people! Disputed testimony for such a claim is just not good evidence.

But it gets worse for Christians. Not only is their key evidence, eyewitness testimony, disputed, but they can’t even tell us on what date this alleged, earth-shattering event occurred! Imagine if someone from another religion told you this story:

Our god, X, came to earth in human form to a province in China in the first century. His mother was told by a space alien that she would conceive a child without the assistance of a human male. The father of the child would be…God the Creator himself…in spirit form. Over more than thirty years, X performed numerous fantastical miracles including raising people from the dead. The raising from the dead of one man caused such a stir that the highest religious officials of the land complained that “the world has gone after him”. One day, a great crowd of people gathered in the capital city, calling on X to become their king, to take over the government. A week later, the government and religious officials arrested X. The governor of the province personally conducted the trial and sentencing of X. X was publicly executed for treason before a crowd of his critics and a handful of his followers. At the moment of his death, darkness covered the land for three hours even though it was the middle of the afternoon. A great earthquake rocked the city (a major city of the empire), causing dozens if not hundreds of graves to be opened. The veil in the principle temple of the land was torn down the middle as if by invisible hands. But that’s only the beginning. Three days later, the sealed tomb of X, which had been guarded by professional soldiers, was found empty; his grave clothes neatly folded in a corner. Dozens if not hundreds of dead people from the graves that had been shaken open three days earlier, walked the streets of the city. Then X began appearing to numerous people, individually and in groups, one group involved 500 people, in a supernaturally-empowered body over the next forty days, walking through locked doors and popping in and out of sight in an instant. At the end of the forty days, X lifted off the face of the earth in front of a crowd and disappeared into the clouds.

Skeptic: Nice. Would you kindly give us the exact dates of the birth, death, and alleged resurrection of this incredible man?

Follower of X: Dates weren’t important back then. We didn’t keep track of the dates.

Gary: Nonsense. The most fantastical events in history, and no one recorded the dates! These stories are clearly legends. Ditto for the tall tales of Christianity. Christians cannot give us exact dates for these fantastical events. We know the exact dates of birth of the Roman Caesars. We know the exact date of the burning of Rome by Nero. We know the exact date of the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. But Christians do not know the exact dates of the birth, death, and bodily resurrection of the King of Kings! Legends, legends, legends!

Would you be willing to engage with someone like Tim McGrew on the issue of miracles?

I would love it. However, he must be advised that I would only debate actual historical evidence. I’m not interested in wading off into the philosophical weeds. Here is a list of all the books I have read regarding the claims of Christianity. Here.

Now, the real question to ask anyone is Why do you believe what you believe? Some people may be able to give better answers than others, and while that will play a role in epistemic justification, it doesn’t play any role in whether or not the actual beliefs are true. You seem to not fully grasp the difference between knowledge and justification. Further, in assuming that if someone believes something from a young age, you also show your own ignorance of informal fallacies. Just because a belief is formed at a young age, has no bearing on whether it is veridical or not. If you think it does, you commit the genetic fallacy. After all, at what age did you learn that “2+2 = 4?“

Once again, you are attempting to defend your cult’s supernatural superstitions by using philosophical arguments and principles of logic. Modern, educated people do not need to know one single principle of philosophy or logic to reject supernatural claims, for the reasons I have stated above. Are you really equating belief in resurrected corpses with belief that 2 + 2 = 4?? This is a non-sequitur. All mathematicians, all scientists, in fact all educated people, in the world agree that 2 + 2 always equals 4. Only a subset of the world’s population believes that one man’s dead corpse was reanimated in the first century CE. And of that subset, many of that subset believe that this “resurrection” was not literally of the body, but of his spirit. So you’re example fails. It is logically fallacious. Children who learn that 2 +2 = 4 can be confident that this claim is true because the overwhelming percentage of the world’s experts, regardless of nationality or religious affiliation, say it is true. Five year olds who are taught to believe that the shed blood of a first century god/man will give them eternal life, are being fed superstitious nonsense.

And let’s talk about the importance of expert opinion. The acceptance, by the general public, of consensus expert opinion is the bedrock of any sophisticated, advanced, modern society. The culture in which every individual considers himself to be the expert, the final arbiter of truth, descends into chaos and failure. Many conservative Christian apologists believe that just because they have spent thousands of hours on the computer studying the claims of their religion, this makes them the final arbiter of truth on these claims. They know the real truth. They can therefore ignore majority expert opinion. This is arrogant foolishness.

As for me, I came to faith in Jesus Christ at the age of 34, while training for Army Special Forces. I was at the absolute height of my mental and physical capacities, a real self-made man. Those where the conditions under which I had a vision of Jesus Christ that totally transformed my life.

I am sure that you are very sincere in this claim. The question is: Should everyone else believe this event really occurred? I say, no, and here is why: Thousands upon thousands of people have claimed to experience visions and have even claimed to have seen dead people who speak to them and touch them. Most of these people are very sincere. Many of them are intelligent people. But these “visions” occur in many cultures and in many religions. They aren’t just happening to Christians. And the odd thing is that most of these “visions” occur to people of lower socioeconomic status, lower levels of education, and to people who are members of religions that emphasize visions, healings, etc. (Roman Catholics, Pentecostals, etc.). The evidence that dead people, such as Jesus of Nazareth, are appearing to people in visions or in reality such as is claimed in the Gospels is just very, very poor.

Look, maybe you are new to Christian thought.

No, I have studied the evidence for Christianity’s claims quite extensively, for a non-scholar. Here is a list of all the books I have read:

-“The Resurrection of the Son of God” by NT Wright,“Jesus and the Eyewitnesses” by -Richard Bauckham,“The Death of the Messiah, Volumes I and II” by Raymond Brown,“Making the Case for Christianity” by Maas, Francisco, et al.,“The Resurrection Fact” by Bombaro, Francisco, et al.“Miracles, Volumes I and II”, by Craig Keener,“The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus” by Gary Habermas and Michael Licona“Why are There Differences in the Gospels” by Michael Licona“The Son Rises” by William Lane Craig“The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus” by Raymond Brown“The Resurrection of Jesus” by Gerd Luedemann“Resurrection Reconsidered” by Gregory Riley“John and Thomas—Gospels in Conflict?” by Christopher Skinner“The Argument for the Holy Sepulchre” (journal article) by scholar Jerome Murphy-O’Connor“Israel in Egypt” by James Hoffmeier“The Bible Unearthed” by Finkelstein and Silberman“The Resurrection of Jesus in the Light of Jewish Burial Practices“ by Craig Evans, (newsletter article) The City, a publication of Houston Baptist University, May 4, 2016“Has the Tomb of Jesus Been Discovered?” by Jodi Magness, SBL Forum“Genre, Sub-genre and Questions of Audience: A Proposed Typology for Greco-Roman biography” (article) by Justin M. Smith, St. Mary’s College, University of St. Andrews, Scotland“Cold-Case Christianity” by J. Warner Wallace“The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel“Misquoting Jesus” by Bart Ehrman“Jesus, Interrupted” by Bart Ehrman“How Jesus Became God” by Bart Ehrman“Jesus Before the Gospels” by Bart Ehrman“Did Jesus Exist?” by Bart Ehrman“Twenty-Six Reasons Why Jews Don’t Believe in Jesus” by Asher Norman (endorsed by Talmudic scholars for its accuracy in presenting a Jewish perspective of Jesus and the Christian New Testament)“The Book of Miracles” by Kenneth L. Woodward“Why I Believed, Reflections of a Former Missionary” by Kenneth W. Daniels“Why Evolution is True” by biologist Jerry Coyne“Masters of the Planet-the Search for our Human Origins” by Ian Tattersall“A Manual for Creating Atheists” by philosopher Peter Boghossian“Can We Trust the Gospels?” by Peter Williams“The Outsider Test for Faith” by John W. Loftus“God and the Folly of Faith:  The Incompatibility of Science and Religion by physicist Victor J. Stenger“Lone Survivors:  How We Came to Be The Only Humans on Earth” by paleoanthropologist Chris Stringer“Evidence that Demands a Verdict” by evangelical apologists Josh and Sean McDowell“The Case Against Miracles” edited by John Loftus “The Resurrection:  A Critical Inquiry” by Jewish author, Michael Alter“The Blind Watchmaker” by biologist Richard Dawkins“The Other Gospels:  Accounts of Jesus from Outside the New Testament” by Bart Ehrman and Zlatko Plese (currently reading)“The Age of Reason” by Thomas Paine“Conversations With My Inner Atheist” by evangelical theologian Randal RauserLord or Legend?  Wrestling with the Jesus Dilemma by Gregory Boyd and Paul Eddy

There is no good evidence that the supernatural operates in our universe, my friend. The evidence for the supernatural claims of Christianity is very poor. The fact that Christians cannot remember even the year of these fantastical, earth-shattering events is overwhelming evidence that these stories are legends. Your cult may give you a great deal of comfort and security, but it is not real. Please examine all your beliefs using reason and critical thinking skills. Respect expert opinion.

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