Gary: I do not believe that there is any good evidence that your god, Lord Jesus the resurrected Christ, exists. So in order for us to have a productive conversation, you will need to provide good evidence for the existence of your god.
Dave: Gary, One of the [pieces of] evidence that I go back to is faith, why did all the apostles die horrible deaths if Jesus wasn’t real?
My thought about the LORD Jesus, God who created the heavens and the earth. Yes Jesus is the God in Genesis 1:1, and the same God who spoke to Moses in the burning bush, and lastly; in the Book of Job, the oldest book in the bible, in Chapter 14:13-17, Job talks about how he’ll live forever, but didn’t know how, but believed he would, what is the difference between you and Job ?? Job believed that the Only wise God would renew him…and in the New Testament letter 1 Corinthians 15, Paul picks up the same thought in verses 3 & 4…”according to the scriptures.
Gary, thank you for writing, lets continue to discuss and learn from one another, lastly…I’m a simple guy that God saved by His grace, I can tell by experience, Jesus is real, make no mistake about it. –Dave
Gary:
Why did all the apostles die horrible deaths if Jesus wasn’t real ?
Countless thousands of people have been willing to die terrible, painful deaths for mistaken beliefs for as long as human beings have existed.
I personally believe that the early Christians sincerely believed that Jesus had literally appeared to them. The question is, why did they believe this? You believe that a supernatural explanation is more probable for the development of this belief while I believe that a non-supernatural explanation is more probable, such as: an illusion (mistaking a bright light, shadow, etc. for a supernatural appearance of a deceased person), a case of mistaken identity (seeing someone in the distance who looks like the deceased person), vivid dreams, delusions, and hallucinations.
I’m a simple guy that God saved by His grace, I can tell by experience, Jesus is real, make no mistake about it.
Dave, what percentage of your belief in Jesus as your resurrected Lord and Savior is based on objective historical evidence and what percentage is based on your personal perceptions and experiences of the resurrected Jesus interacting with you in some fashion?
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End of post.
Escaping Christian Fundamentalism 
The die for a lie argument is also betrayed by the fact that the Bible doesn’t mention how most of the disciples died. Especially notable is that there is no mention of Peter’s death, nor Paul (apostle rather than disciple). One has to follow apocryphal writings that were rejected as scripture to read of most the disciples’ deaths. Or use later traditions, but those later traditions also say Peter was head of the church in Rome, and most Protestants don’t want to believe that.
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“ Gary, thank you for writing, lets continue to discuss and learn from one another.”
He seems to have vanished after his brief interaction on the original thread this was on. Are you still talking to him via pm or anything?
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No. I guess he didn’t like our questions.
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He seemed liked the type of fellow that thought people just needed to hear that Jesus loves them and everything would fall into place. I certainly knew Christians like that back in my evangelical days. I may have even had a bit of that attitude myself. In a culture that has had a strong Christian influence , even though waning, sometimes that’s all some people need. Homeless men’s shelters and other settings where people are down on their luck, are ripe for that kind of message. It’s not so effective, though, with people who are serious about what reality is, such as the many ex christians would frequent this blog and others.
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Very true.
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Well, I guess my comment is moot as he appears to be back.
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Most people WOULDN’T die for a lie – IF they knew that it was a lie.
This just means that the disciples truly believed the resurrection story. But, clearly, that doesn’t make it true at all.
Besides – aside from Paul (and to a lesser degree, Peter), I don’t think anybody really knows what happened to the other apostles. Even for Paul and Peter, the evidence is scant.
I don’t know why any Christians still attempt to use this “die for a lie” argument.
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What disciples?
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I see you got your tinfoil hat on again tonight, Ark…
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Really? Then perhaps you would like to enlighten us with the names of the disciples, your source material and the accompanying evidence of their lives.
I for one would be fascinated with your take, unless you plan to resort to your usual drive by commentary style and merely piss in the pool and climb out?
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Ark – well, actually, I just wanted to piss in your pool and climb out.
I mean, you already know I don’t give Mythologists any more creedence than about 99.9% of real historians do.
BTW – I watched an old debate between Price and Ehrman. Ehrman had books on sale in the lobby. I think Price had books and tinfoil hats on sale….
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So, no evidence then. Par for the course.
You are more ridiculous than the average believer as you consider your version of Christianity the right one to follow and all the others false.
Of course you have oodles of evidence for your version, don’t you?
But yours must be the super duper secret version which is why nobody ever gets to see this evidence, right?
You’re a pathetic joke.
I sincerely hope you have no access to kids.
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like I said, I don’t give Mythologists any more creedence than about 99.9% of real historians do.
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Again, what evidence do you have for all these apostles? I ask as I’m not aware of any genuine historians who give much if any credence to the claim there were 12 Apostles as mentioned in the gospels.
But I am always willing to learn so please, enlighten me. Name a few historians if you will or simply provide a link or two.
Thanks
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