Eyewitness testimony is historically among the most convincing forms of evidence in criminal trials (e.g. Benton, Ross, Bradshaw, Thomas, & Bradshaw, 2006). Probably only a suspect’s signed confession can further convince a jury about that individual’s guilt. …But being convincing isn’t the same as being accurate. Eyewitness testimony is more fallible than many people assume.
…Memory doesn’t record our experiences like a video camera. It creates stories based on those experiences. The stories are sometimes uncannily accurate, sometimes completely fictional, and often a mixture of the two; and they can change to suit the situation. Eyewitness testimony is a potent form of evidence for convicting the accused, but it is subject to unconscious memory distortions and biases even among the most confident of witnesses. So memory can be remarkably accurate or remarkably inaccurate. Without objective evidence, the two are indistinguishable.
—Association for Psychological Science
Every time I debate a Christian on the evidence for the alleged resurrection of Jesus, I am invariably informed that eyewitness testimony is some of the best evidence in a court of law. Ok. Sure. I won’t deny that. But as the above author states, just because eyewitness testimony has been considered some of the best evidence in courts of law for several thousand years does not in any way mean that it is accurate. The advent of forensic DNA analysis has proven that it often is not!
And when it comes to really fantastical claims such as—Bigfoot sightings, alien abductions, and resurrecting corpses—eyewitness testimony is even more dubious as reliable evidence.
So, dear Christians: Stop telling me that 2,000 year old eyewitness testimony is good and sufficient for your Resurrection Legend. It most definitely is not.
How reliable are witnesses to alleged miracles:
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End of post.
Escaping Christian Fundamentalism 
Similar to my comment on a previous post, I will add that witness testimony is only considered useful because most of the time they can be cross examined in person to determine the truth and reliability of their story, and if they were even witnesses at all. We can’t cross examine the witnesses that Christian apologists want to use. Imagine how court cases would work if a lawyer just presented a written statement of a witness but no questions could be asked of that witness, including whether or not he or she actually even was a witness, and how he accounts for the discrepancies in his story compared to other witnesses (that we also can’t cross examine). That is what the apologists want us to accept – but imagine their horror if they were charged with a crime and the prosecution presented written statements by several anonymous people who might have known the eyewitness, wrote their statements decades later, and contradicted each other. But no cross examination allowed- GUILTY! What!?!? It would considered a kangaroo court.
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Well said.
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Sorry, I do disagree with your statement. Follow the science. Eyewitness testimony is the lowest bar to believe. Our country have sentence many black men to death due to find out years later through DNA these black men were innocent.
The lawyers if they used Eyewitness Testimony they usually follow up with DNA evidences, forensics, finger printing and motive for the crimes.
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While I agree with you, I’m not sure what part of my comment you are disagreeing with. My point was that apologists think eyewitness or people who knew eyewitnesses is enough evidence, but wouldn’t accept only that in any other situation.
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Gary, If eye witness evidence is acceptable in courts of law, but not in science, what does that say? To answer that, we must first admit that science says nothing. It’s a methodology, and varying degrees of skeptics within any field that applies the rules for science, especially in a subjective manner as do evolutionists, can and do call anything and everything into question that don’t happen to jive with the skeptic’s personal bias.
Look at you, Gary…you accept the testimony of evolutionists who have produced no evidence by having discovered even one transitional form within the vast array of fossils in all the fossil record, in any strata of rock, from Trilobites to humans, but, oh, you’ve swallowed it all, and without proof.
Frankly, when you sit there, claiming that I’m the one being irrational, that’s an empty claim. Please don’t be bitter that I’m pointing this out. You’re a man of faith just as I am. Your religion believes in what should be detectable in nature, but simply isn’t there. No force in nature has yet been found that can arrange subatomic particles into complex structures based upon massive amounts if information that nature does not and cannot produce randomly. It’s unicorns and gnomes running about, doing the impossible.
I on the other hand believe in Christ Jesus by way of experiential relationship that, although equally escapes an ability on my part, or anyone else part, to provide physical evidence of the spiritual, and yet I’m more grounded than you since you have nothing out there in the cosmos at which you can point for your magical force. You COULD experience the reality of Christ if only you had ever been a true believer, but, Gary, you never did get there. You pulled back at some point that only you can testify.
You see, I think you would never have walked away from an experience with the REAL Christ Jesus had you ever had it, and then turn around and declare his non-existence. That’s a rational observation, is it not? If that’s irrational, then please explain why.
Therein is the reason I call into doubt that you and Nan ever had that depth of relationship with Christ Jesus. You’re both reasonable at some level, and would not deny what you personally experienced.
Now, however, you both want PHYSICAL evidence of He who is not bound nor defined by the physical. When you’re feeling sad inside, you can’t show me physical evidence of it. All you can do is exhibit the outward appearance of an inner experience that you would never claim doesn’t exist. Sadness does exist. It’s experiential to us all. I simply have to take your word for it. That’s the nature of the unseen, and yet you think you’re being rational by demanding evidence that you know good and well could not be provided at the level you demand. Experience with Christ goes FAR beyond our mere emotions.
So, please spare us all the sheer nonsense of you thinking you’ve got the upper hand. You two clearly are not willing to explore Christ’s reality in your adulthood years. Pointing back at when you were nine years old…no. Children don’t have the depths of understanding that YOU should have right now. I’m not so stupid to demand of you that you prove to me any inner thought, sensory feeling or anything else that is immaterial, and therefore beyond physical proof that you cannot produce for me of what you harbor internally. So, why would you play stupid when we both know you’re not. This is more of a silly game to you, which is characteristic of most atheists I have ever encountered. Trying to place upon the shoulders of another your own burden for proof is nothing more than what we see bullies trying to foist upon their victims. It’s simply not going to work with me.
Now can you be more rational, or are you going to continue with your silly games?
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we must first admit that science says nothing
That statement says it all. That is why further discussion with you is pointless.
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Hey, Gary, How about these from your fellow evolutionists:
“Science is fundamentally a game. It is a game with one overriding rule: Rule #1: Let us see how far and to what extent we can explain the behavior of the physical and material universe in terms of purely physical and material causes, without invoking the supernatural.” (R.E.Dickerson; Molecular Evolution)
Harvard evolutionist, Stephen Jay Gould: “I regard the failure to find a clear ‘vector of progress’ in life’s history as the most puzzling fact of the fossil record.” (Stephen Jay Gould; The Ediacaran Experiment)
Paleontologist David Kitts: “The fossil record doesn’t even provide any evidence in support of the Darwinian theory except in the weak sense that the fossil record is compatible with it, just as it is compatible with other evolutionary theories, and revolutionary theories, and special creationist theories and even ahistorical theories.” (David B Kitts; Search for the Holy Transformation)
“Evolution, at least in the sense that Darwin speaks of it, cannot be detected within the lifetime of a single observer.“ (David B. Kitts; Paleontology and Evolutionary Theory)
“Well, we are now about 120 years after Darwin and the knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded. We now have a quarter of a million fossil species, but the situation hasn’t changed much. The record of evolution is still surprisingly jerky and, ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transitions than we had in Darwin’s time. By this I mean that some of the classic cases of Darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information — what appeared to be a nice simple progression when relatively few data were available now appear to be much more complex and much less gradualistic. So Darwin’s problem has not been alleviated in the last 120 years and we still have a record which does show change but one that can hardly be looked upon as the most reasonable consequence of natural selection.” (David. M. Raup; Conflicts between Darwin and Paleontology)
“In the years after Darwin, his advocates hoped to find predictable progressions. In general, these have not been found–yet the optimism has died hard, and some pure fantasy has crept into textbooks.” (David M. Raup; Evolution, and the Fossil Record)
“This regular absence of transitional forms is not confined to mammals, but is an almost universal phenomenon, as has long been noted by paleontologists.” (George Gaylord Simpson; Tempo and Mode in Evolution)
“Paleontologists have paid an exorbitant price for Darwin’s argument. We fancy ourselves as the only true students of life’s history, yet to preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection we view our data as so bad that we almost never see the very process we profess to study.” (Stephen Jay Gould; The Panda’s Thumb)
“But fossil species remain unchanged throughout most of their history and the record fails to contain a single example of a significant transition.” (David S. Woodruff; Evolution: The Paleobiological View)
“the fossil record does not convincingly document a single transition from one species to another.” (Steven M. Stanley; The New Evolutionary Timetable)
The late Dr. Colin Patterson, senior paleontologist of the British Museum of Natural History wrote concerning the lack of transition species in his book “Evolution”:
“About the lack of direct illustrations in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them…..I will lay it on the line–there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument.” (Colin Patterson; Evolution)
“In that great window to the past–the fossil record–we only find distinct plant and animal kinds, with no transitional forms. With the exception of creatures that have become extinct…. ALL life forms found in the fossils are just like those presently alive! To say it again: All non-extinct plant and animal fossils are the same as creatures now alive on the earth. There is NO evidence of evolution in the fossils.” (Evolution Facts.org)
I realize that none of this fits in with your world view, and that you will therefore reject it all out of hand, and maybe even claim that they’re all misquotes, etc., in the irrational manner of typical atheism, but they said what they said, men and women who are in the fields of study you claim to believe are the experts. At least these were willing to be honest enough to admit the obvious without looking like total fools.
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If you would like to discuss the topic of evolution with me, I insist that you first read the book I recommended. If you do, we can discuss it chapter by chapter.
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He’s just here to preach.
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HA! You noticed???
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He’s not even preaching. He’s just throwing shit at the wall in the hopes that something sticks.
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I behaved just like Sword Dude in my initial interactions with atheist blogger (ex-Baptist pastor) Bruce Gerencser. However, when Bruce refused to talk to me any further until I had read a couple of Bart Ehrman’s books, I decided, what the heck, I’ll read one book.
But many fundamentalist/conservative Christians are unwilling to read books critical of their faith beliefs. They have been told that doing so opens up the door to Satan poisoning their mind. This is another sign that conservative Christianity is a cult. Rational people check out both sides of an argument. They are not afraid to read the criticisms of the Opposition because an invisible demon is going to take control of their mind if they do.
Let’s see if Swordmanjr has the courage to take a small step out of his Christian bubble to investigate the pro arguments for evolution.
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I can understand that. Preservation of their important beliefs is more important than finding out what is actually true. I doubt he’ll ever listen to what actual experts have to say, much less consider them in informing his beliefs.
The absurdity of attacking evolution is that if evolution was shown to be wrong I’d still be an atheist because my atheism has nothing to do with evolution. Even if evolution is wrong it wouldn’t give Christianity any more plausibility. I often wonder if they really want to say “I may be wrong, but you’re wrong too, so what does it matter what we believe.” Asymov shot this down with his “The Relativity of Wrong” essay decades ago.
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I’ll have to read that.
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Oh , I actually understand the fear of Christians to check out other literature more , because I have done it. When I became a Christian ,my fear of checking out everything disappeared and I did it . I read Holy madness ,and other books etc . But one particular book about transcendental meditation was so emotionally draining ,it made me feel depressed, I still read the whole of it then wrote comments all over the book about why this guy was wrong. But that three day depression makes me get why people are scared of reading other books,moreso spiritual books. But I have never been afraid to check out everything, because as usual,I know God will help me out. As for your evolution books, I really can’t read those, it would be like reading science , it would be so boring I think I would dose while reading, evolution is just not my area
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What denomination of Christian are you? Evangelical? Would you describe yourself as a conservative, moderate, or liberal Christian?
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For now, I’m not attending Church, I’m still trying to find a fellowship I can belong to . And I still can’t put myself in any of those categories, I don’t know which I could say I belong to. But I’m ex catholic, I was part of the Roman Catholic Church before I actually got to know Christ .
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Do you consider yourself to be a “born again Christian”?
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Yes ,I do.
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I love your post , but well I am a Christian. I don’t just believe the eyewitness testimony of men 2000yrs ago anymore, I have my own testimony to back them up now. So wait, are you going to discredit personal testimonies of millions of people, courts of law usually need only three to believe. They say one view can be a lie,the second one might be distorted or disoriented,but wait there’s even a third,
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If a group of Hare Krishna claim that 500 of them saw Lord Ganesh appear to them in the form of a man with the head of an elephant, would you believe this event occurred just because there are 500 witnesses?
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No,I wouldn’t. But for Jesus,it wasn’t a sighting, he was part of History, they killed him, pierced him to make sure He was dead, they put a guard at his tomb,they tried to ensure he wouldn’t rise , these are continuing events . For Jesus it’s different. Are you putting Jesus Christ on trial right now or are you claiming that we cannot trust His trial 2000 yrs ago. People tend to think people of long ago are not as smart as us which is not true. When the news of the resurrection was spread, Jesus’ trial begun . It’s the most unfair trial in history, witnesses got arrested and sentenced to death. But during Jesus’ trial years ago, they didn’t depend on eye witnesses only, plus eye witnesses were never trusted but considered insane. First they looked at Circumstancial evidence, the empty tomb, the guard,etc. They considered whether Jesus really died. This is why it was important,it was personal, for Priests, Rulers, Judges etc to prove that Jesus hadn’t risen. Two thousand years ago, they failed to prove the Resurrection was a hoax .And when they failed to prove this, they tried to silence everyone who said it . And guess what , Jesus Christ is still on Trial, Every body puts him on trial,and it will be that way till the end of time.
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How do you know that there were guards at the tomb of Jesus?
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Oh, that’s part of the Bible account. It’s okay if you don’t think it’s true, again.
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In the Bible, how many eyewitnesses claim there were guards at Jesus’ tomb?
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I don’t really know the number. It’s something to do with history, the ruler decided to do it due to the rumour that Jesus said he would rise, so the tomb was sealed and guards put, no number of eyewitnesses mentioned. They might have been like five. But this is the reason why it was never claimed that the disciples had stolen the body,again according to history not even the Bible . But it’s also mentioned in the Bible.
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I guess what I meant was: How many authors of the Gospels tell us that there were guards at Jesus’ tomb? All four?
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Oh ,okay.No,not all four, but there’s a good reason for that. You can’t expect all people to give the same account of what happened,some might consider a detail important and others,not important
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Only one Gospel author mentions guards being at Jesus tomb—the author of the Gospel of Matthew. You are correct, it is always possible that the other three authors did not think mentioning the guards was important.
So we have one source that says there were guards. How do you know that this source was an eyewitness to the alleged events he describes? This is a very important issue, because if there were no guards at the tomb, it is possible that someone took/moved the body resulting in the “empty tomb”.
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I don’t actually think this source was an eyewitness. I rather prefer to think if claiming the body had been taken by the disciples was possible, the Rulers would have done that, for me there’s a good reason as to why they didn’t make that claim, a claim that could have saved them so much trouble. That’s why logically,I think the guard must have been at the door. Oh but when you are done discrediting the eye witnesses,history ,the Bible etc, you might have to discredit another important witness,the Holy Spirit, your journey is definitely so long, Good luck.
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So we have one source who even you do not believe was an eyewitness to seeing guards at Jesus tomb. So all we have is hearsay, right? How reliable is hearsay?
According to the author of Matthew, the Jewish rulers did claim that the body had been taken by the disciples. Why would they have started a rumor about the disciples taking the body if they knew that no one would believe such a rumor? That doesn’t make sense.
Is it possible that the author of Matthew, while reading the Gospel of Mark, saw that skeptics of the Resurrection Story would jump on the fact that if Mark’s account were true (no guards) someone could have taken the body of Jesus sometime between Friday night and Sunday morning? This alarmed him because he so much wanted sinners to believe in Jesus as their resurrected Lord and Savior! So in his book (gospel), he added a teeny, tiny, little white lie: There were guards at the tomb the entire time so it is impossible that someone moved the body.
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Well okay, but then again it’s possible the guard was there and that’s why the Rulers accusation was never taken seriously or accepted. Plus,the gospels were initially not written for people 2000 yrs later but for people then, people who knew the facts , people who could so easily just look at Matthew and say,wait aren’t you lying about this . Plus I can’t imagine disciples who were cowardly during the crucifixion all over a sudden being brave enough to steal the body and lie to thousands at the risk of death.
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the gospels were initially not written for people 2000 yrs later but for people then, people who knew the facts , people who could so easily just look at Matthew and say,wait aren’t you lying about this .
Where was the Gospel of Matthew written? Rome? Antioch? Alexandria? When did the Gospel of Matthew first start circulating in Palestine? Were any eyewitnesses still alive to read it? Maybe they had all been killed by the Romans in the destruction of Jerusalem in the year 70.
Plus I can’t imagine disciples who were cowardly during the crucifixion all over a sudden being brave enough to steal the body and lie to thousands at the risk of death.
Maybe the Sanhedrin moved the body and blamed its disappearance on the disciples.
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Those are all possibilities for you but not for me, but the Sanhedrin moving the body is impossible,if they had done that, they would have told the truth the minute the Jesus trails begaun. As for when Matthew was written,I don’t got clear information but I know John was written last when only a few disciples remained which still leaves Matthew as written when most witnesses lived
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but the Sanhedrin moving the body is impossible, if they had done that, they would have told the truth the minute the Jesus trials began.
You may believe it to be improbable, but can you or anyone else be 100% sure this is not what happened? History has frequently recorded individuals and groups making odd decisions that seem contrary to their best interest. So can you admit that it is at least possible that the Sanhedrin moved the body (and told no one about it) for some odd reason that makes no sense to us today?
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I’m sorry I can’t admit that, I understand your reasoning but still logically that wouldn’t make sense to me. Also since Jesus Christ really did resurrect, the possibilities of that are zero or even negative.
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So you are saying there is zero possibility that the Sanhedrin moved the body of Jesus because you are 100% certain that Jesus was resurrected. How can anyone be 100% certain of any alleged event that happened 2000 years ago? Is that rational?
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No, it’s obviously irrational. But who said I was all about rationality , I’m a Christian remember.
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I know John was written last when only a few disciples remained which still leaves Matthew as written when most witnesses lived
What is the scholarly source for your claim that a few disciples were still alive when the author of John wrote his gospel?
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Oh, I read alot of Christian literature but I sadly can’t pin point my source, my bad. Plus I’m not studying theology, my course of study is Law.
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As someone who is studying the law, I’m sure you appreciate the value of good evidence. Do you have any good evidence that your god, Jesus of Nazareth, is the Creator, Emilly, other than alleged 2,000 year old eyewitness testimony and your personal feelings, intuitions, and convictions?
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No, there’s no evidence that I know of. All I have got is the Bible , the prophecies that He would come ,then the 2000 yr old account, then the Miracle and sudden change in my life that I don’t know how to explain, and the Holyspirit, etc. In short, I don’t got any good evidence for you, I’m sorry. But there can never be real good evidence, I mean for every Christ miracle,there was faith,a possibility that you could be wrong, I can bet that that’s how the disciples felt locked in a room and scared when Jesus was crucified, and for crying out loud they had alot of evidence,they had walked with Him, they knew God had chosen him, they knew that he was the Son of God and they still doubted that He would return to them. Not forgetting the ungrateful Israelites, they saw God do the impossible,they ate food falling from the clouds,heard His voice, drunk water from a rock ,passed through a river , watched the Sun stand still etc etc,but they still doubted, Yet somehow you think and hope that you can ever find solid evidence. For me solid evidence is in me,in my life,my heart,I can’t give that to you.
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I mean for every Christ miracle, there was faith
What is your definition of “faith”?
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Believing without seeing, taking a leap into the unknown, choosing to trust God knowing you could be so wrong . More like jumping out of the plane with no parachute hoping he will hold you ,an extreme way of saying it.
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Hebrews 11:6
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.Hebrews 11:1
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Ok, thank you for clarifying what you mean by “faith”.
If faith is believing without seeing the evidence, how would that kind of testimony go over in a court of law?
Prosecutor: Your Honor, I have no evidence, but I believe by faith, that Emilly committed the crime in question.
Is such belief rational??
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Actually, it’s irrational, but that’s what faith is, it’s making a choice you do know could get you into trouble ,a choice on which you know there’s no going back, yet still you choose to do it. But for Courts of Law ,they can put God on trial now ,but they don’t judge God , God judges them.
In God’s court room, all of the truth is before him, in Usual court rooms, that can’t happen. Real life ain’t the same as a courtroom. I after all choose to defend someone because I believe they are innocent, and in our courts ,I have to provide proof that they are, not even solid proof but reasonable proof, millions of People are jugded on the basis of reasonable proof because that’s all we are capable of, no wonder we complain of injustice in court rooms alot.
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I’ve noticed you (Gary) are being very diplomatic in this thread. I mean that in a good way.
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A polite question deserves a polite response.
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Hi Emily
I just following the tread of your discussion. I am an atheist ⚛for many reasons. Recently I was involved in a discussion on Zoom with The Unitarian Universalist. There beliefs is based on humanistic teaching. Spirituality is unbounded. They draw from scripture, science, nature, philosophy, personal experiences and ancient traditions. You may feel uncomfortable with UUN rejects the mainstream Christian doctrine. It’s a liberal religion born of Jewish and Christian traditions.
Just a thought
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Hey Donna, thanks for sharing. But well, when Christians make religion or fail to follow doctrine but instead make something new, there are many chances it ain’t Christianity at all. And Christians have done that alot, that’s one of the few reasons we have many different churches and some differences we think we shouldn’t reconcile.
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Wait, Jesus Christ is on trial ,as usual, and you are calling me as an eye witness, I’m so so very honored . But the chances of you believing me are 0.00000001. So why do you still do it? Why is it important for you to prove that the resurrection is a hoax that thousands have innocently or ignorantly etc died for? I mean for the Judges 2,000 yrs ago,it was politically and religiously important,that’s why it was personal. But don’t expect as many resources as they had actually. So why is it important for you?
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I have my own testimony to back them up now.
Where and when did you see Jesus? Please describe what he looked like.
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Okay,if you have a personal testimony. My own is a miracle for me, I didn’t even see him physically. But I know I have walked with him, it’s something you wouldn’t understand it even call madness but that’s okay, very okay. Because it’s my testimony, mine,and you are free to discredit it or disbelieve it
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Would you accept the personal testimony of a Hindu regarding an alleged miracle based on his or her personal subjective experience?
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Like I said it’s a personal testimony. Humanly speaking you will ask, Is this person honest ? Are they sane? Is it possible that it’s just their extreme imagination? How has this impacted their life? Etc etc. It’s a personal testimony, you on the other hand are free to discredit or accept it or call it madness,your choice,your call . Just like I had said. When I read the personal testimony of some crazy guru,I thought him delusional and manipulative and I still do.
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So what you are saying is that accepting as fact another person’s subjective personal experience as evidence for a miracle is very much dependent on the reliability of the person who is making the claim. In other words, we shouldn’t believe all miracle claims. Some “eyewitnesses” may be lying, mistaken, or looney. That sounds reasonable.
Do you think it is possible for someone who is honest, sane, and level-headed to believe that they have experienced a miracle and be wrong?
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No, I don’t think so.
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It is impossible for someone who is honest, sane, and level-headed to believe that they have experienced a miracle and be wrong?? Are you sure?
Thousands of honest, sane, very level-headed Hindus believe that their gods have performed fantastical miracles for them. So if you are correct, we should believe as fact all these Hindu miracle claims?
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Actually we Christians can explain away the Hindu experiences with the fact that there’s are angels and demons,there’s God and Satan etc etc. The devil can diguise himself too. So yes, Hindus can have miracles too just like divination , witchika etc all do exist. We will just classify their experiences as from the devil because of the never positive results,
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How do you know that your miracles aren’t from Satan or some other evil spirit and the miracles experienced by Hindus are from the true god or gods?
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Like I said ,the outcomes, lessons, the human conscience etc. I have been taught that God’s holy so having a god who allows human sacrifices, temple prostitution would logically be unacceptable. Plus ,this is Yahweh’s world ,you don’t actually think He would make it difficult to differentiate.
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For Christians, discernment is important, it’s a gift from God actually and not something to do with human nature. But for non Christians like you, you will make that distinction on your own, do you remember when the Pharisees claimed Jesus’ power to cast out demons came from the chief of demons and Jesus rebuked them. Actually in this case you will be left to make the distinction on your own, almost like when you say the world has no Creator and we can explain how it came to be with evolution, because God will say it’s quite obvious you can see that this world has a creator , and you can say no , it doesn’t. God said nature is a witness to the fact that he is Creator , and you say no nature is witness to the fact that there’s no Creator, same thing with the distinction btn angels and demons work.
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God said nature is a witness to the fact that he is Creator , and you say no nature is witness to the fact that there’s no Creator, same thing with the distinction btn angels and demons work.
Did the Creator God say this or did a human? How do you know?
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For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities —his eternal power and divine nature —have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Romans 1:20
I could say it was people who said this with the inspiration of God, but wait, if I want to say God said it, I can say it. If God spoke to Moses and he said it, God said it .If God inspired Paul and he wrote it, God said it. I will use my Father’s name as I please in this matter. The truth is,it doesn’t matter if you do not believe the Bible. But the entire world sadly won’t stop until you believe it,the odds ain’t for you. Unless you are lucky to be the one sheep for which he leaves the 99, it’s okay if you don’t get that,it’s a Christian analogy of love.
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For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities —his eternal power and divine nature —have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Romans 1:20
Maybe the true Creator is Lord Brahma, or Allah, or a god that has no interest in being identified. Do you have any good evidence that your god is the Creator, Emilly?
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No, I just said I don’t have any good evidence Gary. I could tell the Bible story, the story of the God I worship, the God of Israel, the God who revealed himself to Abraham and later the sons of Israel,but you probably know it already. Plus,it won’t be so helpful. If we could so easily tell who the real Creator is,we wouldn’t have any confusion in the world at all,but clearly it ain’t easy
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Wasn’t Jesus a human sacrifice for sins?
Plus ,this is Yahweh’s world ,you don’t actually think He would make it difficult to differentiate.
Maybe this is Lord Ganesh’s world. How would you know if both Christians who worship Yahweh/Jesus and Hindus who worship Lord Ganesh and other Hindu gods are both, by the thousands, experiencing miracles?
You seem to have no better evidence than disputed 2,000 year old eyewitness testimony and your own subjective experiences. Is that really good evidence for such an important claim??
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You don’t get the Jesus’ sacrifice for sins concept at all. Plus he was the Son of God, so no,he wasn’t a human sacrifice.
I have never thought I needed good evidence if that’s even a thing.
That stuff about who the God of this world is, all I can say is Yahweh is, but as for you, anybody can be, until the end of time that is, after death, only then will the truth be clearer, I know that by heart ,not by a truth I can provide you with.
The God of this world is his own witness actually. Wait,you didn’t actually think I could provide any real evidence because I can’t. Such an important claim is actually more understood by the weak and fools, for Paul,it took a real miracle and hearing Jesus’ voice plus being physically blinded but God doesn’t do that for everybody clearly. The truth is ,only hearts that are seeking him will find Him and if you are not, don’t expect any valid evidence from anybody.
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That stuff about who the God of this world is, all I can say is Yahweh is, but as for you, anybody can be, until the end of time that is, after death, only then will the truth be clearer, I know that by heart ,not by a truth I can provide you with.
So what you are saying is that you know one of the greatest universal truths ever known to humanity (the identity of the Creator)—by your feelings, intuitions, and conviction of being right. But if millions of Hindus have the same intense feelings, intuitions, and conviction of being right about their god(s), how reliable are personal feelings, intuitions, and convictions?
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I don’t know much about Hindus. But at sixteen, all my personal feelings, intuitions and convictions told me was that God could be a possibility, maybe he really is God so I should attend Church every Sunday so that if that Christian shit turned out true after I died , I might actually stand a chance of going to heaven ,so I gave the possible God alittle bit of my time. I was betting with my life, now I don’t even think that can ever be helpful to anybody. But when I prayed to God, gave my life to Christ, asked that he helped me get to know him, and I told him for once I was trusting him but I wanted to know for sure, He let me know Him, I can’t tell you I saw a vision because I didn’t or this and that happened, all I know is a miracle happened and only I was there to witness it, so much changed, I was now willing to lose everything for Jesus. I lost my religion for him and some of my friends, choir, etc and I don’t regret a thing, even today I will tell Him He’s worth so much more. I mean I also gave my life to Christ at sixteen still and now I’m soon making 20 and I have never changed my mind, not even my certainty of Christ has ever changed. When things go wrong, I can say ,God are you even on my side but never God ,are you real ,for the first time I know for sure. And I think it’s not smart if I said it’s because of my personal feelings cos those change all the time, intuition ,cos that can be wrong or convictions,I have had the pleasure of exploring the other side actually.
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Here is a short video of people claiming to have experienced exactly what you say you experienced…but they are Jews, Muslims, Mormons, Hare Krishna, etc.. who each interpreted their intense experience, as you did, as a message from their god:
Is it possible that all of you had a very intense emotional experience (a relatively common, natural, human experience) but misperceived it as a “miracle”?
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I have not seen the video yet, but before I do,I think I should note, I never said my experience was an intense emotional one. I remember after giving my life to Christ that I felt nothing actually. Oh, except I remember how I felt getting rid of my rosary, I felt fear ,as though I wouldn’t be protected in the night , but I trusted God alone to keep me safe.
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I have not seen the video, I can’t seem to see it, have you sent it?
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I will link it in the post above.
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The truth is ,only hearts that are seeking him will find Him and if you are not, don’t expect any valid evidence from anybody.
What would you say to a Hindu who said the same thing to you: “The fact is, Emilly, only those who sincerely seek Lord Krishna will ever find him. Don’t expect Hindus to provide you with valid evidence about Lord Krishna. You will never find enough “evidence” based on your own wisdom to believe in him. Lord Krishna only reveals himself to the humble who listen for his voice in their hearts.”
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You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13.
It was said and I will pass on the message as it is. As for Lord Krishna, he is none of my business for now, I don’t got any real or online friends who believe in him so for now, I don’t think it’s necessary to answer that. But yes, you will never find evidence on your own wisdom to believe in Jehovah,it’s either Faith or Faith, which is kinda scary for many reasons.
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“ How do you know that your miracles aren’t from Satan or some other evil spirit and the miracles experienced by Hindus are from the true god or gods?”
If God allows the devil to deceive people in various religions, then it could very well be that Christianity is just another one of these deceptions, and god is actually testing the Jews, to see if they stay loyal to the true faith of Judaism. Jesus, Paul etc and the writers of the New Testament are just agents of the devil trying to lead the Jews away from Judaism.
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Well said.
This is why relying on subjective personal perceptions of miracles is not a reliable method of determining universal truths, in particular: which (if any god) is the one true god.
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Wow, Universal truths , interesting word. Except I think the truth ain’t always a Universal truth. Jesus Christ is the Redeemer of the World, a truth that I doubt is a universal truth. Plus , God decided who the true God was, it’s illogical, But He revealed Himself and said, I alone am God, worship no god but me , all the other gods are the works of men. For now ,that’s just my truth and not yours. It’s also from the Bible so you are free to say you don’t believe in that book,or the other objections against it.
“Do people make their own gods? Yes, but they are not gods!”NIV, Jeremiah 16:20
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What I mean by a “universal or objective truth” is a truth claim that is valid for everyone. For example, the truth claim: “water at sea level always boils at 212 degrees Fahrenheit” is always true for everyone, regardless of one’s individual feelings, perceptions, or convictions.
Now, here is an example of a subjective truth claim: “Chocolate Chip Cookie Dough ice cream is the best ice cream in the world.” It may be true for you that Chocolate Chip Cookie Dough ice cream is the best but it is not the best for everyone.
Now, it is true that you do not need any evidence other than your subjective personal feelings and perceptions for this claim to be true. It is a personal opinion, a preference, not an objective fact. For an objective fact, people require a much higher standard of evidence to believe your claim than they do for a subjective preference or opinion.
If you believe that Jesus/Yahweh is the creator of the universe as an opinion, then you do not need to provide any more evidence. If, however, you are stating that it is a universal/objective fact that Jesus/Yahweh is the creator of the universe, you need much better evidence to be taken seriously by most modern, educated people.
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Oh I get you. But yes, Jesus is a Universal truth like I said ,that’s not an opinion, at the same time, I don’t need to be taken seriously by the so called modern people. I mean , just because God is a Universal truth doesn’t mean he will be proven like the law of gravity can be. But as usual you have the freedom to say God ain’t a Universal truth, atleast for now.
Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.1 Corinthians 1:22- 25.
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Your supernatural beliefs are based on very unreliable evidence: disputed 2000 year old testimony and your subjective feelings/perceptions. That is not rational, Emilly, in particular for someone studying the Law. I encourage you to study the topic of “critical thinking skills”. Have a nice day.
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Thank you Gary, have a nice day too. Oh but don’t worry about me, I think quite clearly so I know what I’m up for, and I’m not turning back. It may seem irrational to you, but I like to think if me as a thinker and Christ is the best choice I have ever made in my whole life, he can never be disputed. Etc etc .It was fun chatting with you though, all the best
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Wait, you made your own conclusions, even about me, you just concluded I’m the irrational fellow who depends entirely on lies and feelings, you just passed Judgement on me. And the , disputed 2000yr old testimony , funny 🤣🤣🤣.But for real, I knew this was coming, I knew it would happen no matter how far our little dispute went. It’s just the way it goes actually. But it was fun chatting with you, 🤝, bye.
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Good thinking, but first you would have to say that Jesus’ miracles were from Satan, that for me wouldn’t be a smart move.
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How would you know? Maybe Yahweh is the true Creator God. Satan used Jesus to deceive people. Jesus’ miracles and alleged resurrection were all tricks of the Devil to deceive the world away from the one true, God, Jehovah/Yahweh. Maybe the true religion is Judaism and you are committing idol worship by worshipping and praying to a man.
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First, Jesus Christ doesn’t lead us away from Yahweh, but He leads us to Yahweh. Jesus Christ ain’t a man, He is God. He is a part of the Trinity. And the devil ain’t that smart.
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How do you know that Jesus is God? Because of disputed 2,000 year old testimony? Is very dated, disputed testimony trustworthy, in particular when it comes to such an important issue?
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I don’t usually run from arguments but I’m not answering that. I mean I don’t owe you proof remember, plus I’m a Christian, again you seem to be forgetting that. What, are you expecting me to go,the Bible,the Holy Spirit, my life, my walk with Christ , etc etc etc stuff I have already said,this is unfair
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First, Jesus Christ doesn’t lead us away from Yahweh, but He leads us to Yahweh. Jesus Christ ain’t a man, He is God. He is a part of the Trinity. And the devil ain’t that smart. And goodnight, it’s midnight in my country.
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Sorry I posted my message twice .
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Yet the devil is smart enough to lead astray billions of Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, Jews, etc., etc. with fake miracles??
How do you know that Jesus was correct in his claims about himself?
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First of all, the devil ain’t that smart, men are, when it comes to rebellion and turning away from God, we shall create ways. We kinda allow the devil in as though we are on the same page,the war against God.All of humanity is first in rebellion to God, we want to be gods of our own, we just wanna ask, what power does he have over us again and again. We make gods of our own only so we don’t have to worship God, I mean no wonder the Israelites turned away from Jehovah alot. I know for Certain Jesus Christ was right in his claims because I know Him, I believe him and I’m crazy enough to Trust him . But wait, again with this Certainty question, I’m certain of Christ, but Just like I could never be certain on my own, don’t ever expect to be certain on your own moreso just because I said it, I mean we are all human ,smart enough not to trust each other and even if you were Certain today or somebody was because I said so, tomorrow they would be uncertain because they are now certain of what someone else has said, another charming thing about humans,we change alot. I’m Certain and really you don’t even know me that much, don’t let that bother you, afterall I could just be another lunatic and that’s okay🤣🤣
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But wait, if Satan could do that, he would be such a dumb fool, I mean he would have led millions around the world to Yahweh 🤣🤣 But still, impossible theory .
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According to many Jews, the fact that Christians worship Jesus is a form of idolatry. The Old Testament strictly forbids worshipping any person other than Yahweh. If Jesus was not Yahweh, then you are worshipping a man.
You have not provided any good evidence that Jesus is Yahweh other than disputed, ancient testimony and your own subjective feelings and perceptions. Is that rational?
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Nope, like I said it’s irrational. But I believe in Jesus Christ, I know He is the promised Messiah ,I also know that’s a truth not many Jews will get to know. JESUS CHRIST has fulfilled hundreds of their prophecies, including those no man could fulfill so if they are going to reject him, that’s on them. So wow, for a Jew ,one man was coincidentally born in Bethlehem to parents coming from Nazareth , coincidentally he was rejected by them, and his bones were not broken on the cross, coincidentally a man came from nowhere and prophesied Jesus was messiah, the temple Curtains tore and he was betrayed for strictly 30 pieces of silver, etc etc that’s on the Jews alone. He fulfilled all prophesy, it’s there fault if they can’t see the truth right before them, But Jesus’ is the King of Israel and that won’t be changing. Plus,I’m irrational, I could just believe Jesus is God because the Bible accounts clearly said He said so, what does it matter 🤔
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It matters because your religion, which I believe to be a cult, is responsible for a massive amount of discrimination and persecution of people all over the world. It is occurring in your country where gays and lesbians are openly persecuted by authorities simply because of whom they choose to love and sleep with it. Your religion encourages and perpetuates the violation of human rights and human dignity.
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Wow, humanity, It’s actually quite true that God is Holy and He is a Judge. But God tells us He created love so we shouldn’t even think about trying to teach Him what it is. He made humanity, He will define it and we shall pay attention and obey .He is love. He sets the rules ,not me. If humans believe they are good enough without God,that’s on them. Actually I don’t really want to answer this , I just can’t stop feeling like it’s irrational. Plus, authorities in the Country are not valid Christian representatives, the topic of homosexuality is just way too wide and human rights , get valid proof. Besides, Christians are just people like you, they could mess up, at the heart of Christianity is the fact that we are such worthless sinners who can’t save ourselves ,and that’s definitely not the reason why it matters to you, you are lying.
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Why do humans need a savior?
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Well, I don’t feel like answering that,sorry, I’m really sorry.🙏
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“But God tells us He created love so we shouldn’t even think about trying to teach Him what it is.”
So the Christians who say that “God is love” wrong???
“He made humanity, He will define it and we shall pay attention and obey”
Non-sequitur. Even if it was true that we were made by God it does not follow that we should obey.
“He is love.”
I thought you said that God created love? How does something create something that it itself is? Did God create itself in your view?
“Plus, authorities in the Country are not valid Christian representatives, the topic of homosexuality is just way too wide and human rights , get valid proof. Besides, Christians are just people like you, they could mess up”
Serious question here Emily. Why would God create a holy book like the Bible that is so easy to get wrong? Wouldn’t an all knowing, all powerful, being like God be able to create a book that nobody would be able to interpret incorrectly? Seems like this should be incredibly easy task for God. If God really does exist, and has an incredibly important message for all of humanity, shouldn’t all of that message be perfectly clear and unmistakable? If not then God just seems to be incompetent at best, outright malicious at worst.
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Interesting that NO Christian is able to answer the questions posed in your last paragraph. Oh, they’ll come up with lots of bible and preacher quotes, but to provide a bonafide answer? Good luck.
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Theists have gotten very good at rationalizing away the problems of their theologies. The whole industry of apologetics would seem to exist solely for that purpose.
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🤣🤣🤣🤣
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You know the statement , God will be God, it is something that even I am just understanding,it’s something I’m learning. I like the scripture, Be still and know that I’m God. I mean we ask a million questions and plenty of times the only good answer He will give us is “IAM GOD, know that.” I’m a Christian and it’s taking me forever to understand that, maybe one-time if I actually do learn it by heart , I will be able to share it with you or other people. For now, I’m sorry I can’t really be helpful to you Herald. Oh and I love your name, wait in the Bible it meant messenger,right , actually that’s not important,sorry again.
But for real, this is the only good answer you will ever get,
He says, “Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth.”Psalms 46:10
That’s the best answer to all of your qns ,the words” I’M GOD.” And given the fact that not many Christians understand it and even I can’t explain it, well it won’t help much. No wonder people dislike Christians though . But for real that’s the answer God gave to Job after he asked a million good questions that we are even today still asking.
Sorry I couldn’t give a more logical answer though.
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Oh, but Herald , I know for certain that for your last question, before explanations like maybe humans wrote the Bible with God’s guidance and they make mistakes or maybe that could have been the way God wanted it,he had a plan and reaching imperfect people perfectly wasn’t part of it,or God has a better answer etc etc before any sensible explanations, or actually without any sensible explanations,the only and real good answer God will give a Christian who asked that question of why isn’t it all perfect, “is know that I’m God, I’m all knowing, all perfect ,all Holy all powerful etc etc in short I don’t actually owe you an answer,do you know that, I own you,I can do with you as I please and I won’t be questioned , etc etc. The phrase KNOW THAT IM GOD , means so much,so many things ,but God rarely gives it to people who don’t know Him because they obviously will misunderstand it. He also commonly gives it to those who know just how much He loves them, I mean anybody can interprete it to mean He is a ruthless Tyrant but the People who know how much He loves them also know that if he were that, we wouldn’t even have free oxygen for breathing in,the people who know He created them with choice to choose Him or death also know that he ain’t no tryrant . People who know Him also know that ,the term, IM GOD, is actually just a statement of fact, an unchangeable Truth etc.etc
As for questions on who created God,or qns that are abit closer to that, God wasn’t created, He has always been. That is hard and will always be hard to understand. Earth is in a cycle of time, a cycle of creation and death, there’s nothing that is that wasn’t created, including the skies or nature that’s why we have evolution that seems more logical sometimes. Point is , some truths are beyond us, they don’t fit in with all of us, they show the limit of our wisdom. It’s easier to actually think of mystical creeds and reason those out than it will ever be to think of a being who is the Beginning and the end(alpha and Omega), Redeemer and Judge, a Lion and a lamb, etc etc.
Oh and if you call on a Christian,you will surely find some madness 🤣🤣
Same goes, God is love means God is fully love , just like saying God is Holiness, we don’t really mean Holiness is God but that ,wait,this is another complicated Christian theology thing, why explain it. As for whether we should or must obey Him, we are humans we have choice, we never do obey Him but that doesn’t change who God is, another Christian issue I don’t wanna get into. God didn’t create Himself, actually and like I was saying earlier when we say God is love, we don’t mean love is God, we mean something different, So yes, He is love and He created love, disturbing, right.
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And how do you KNOW all this, Emily? Did all this information just magically become part of you when you became a Christian? Or perhaps it was more than someone (pastor/priest) filled in the blanks?
Based on my personal experiences, all that you have written comes from the indoctrination that accompanies your journey into Christianity. And no matter how you try to color or paint it, any knowledge you think you have about “God” has been implanted by humans.
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I can never say magically, no offense to fairytale magic. But maybe those humans could be those who wrote the Bible, or I don’t even know. Most of that stuff though just pops up when I’m praying,or rather just talking to God or complaining to him about something. I’m not in a Church yet, I’m still trying to find one I can belong to and I’m less worried about that nowadays . But all this stuff, hasn’t been implanted by humans as far as I know. Some things you just got to learn. I read novels and if wanna read a about the Cross, check out The Cross by Max Lucado or my Favorite, IN DEBT TO CHRIST , and on the purposes of God,check out The Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren. As for my opinions or what I said in the texts, if I ever find someone who has written about them, moreso the confusing , I’M GOD, I will gladly share that book and also read it, I mean I’m still just learning . But if I knew stuff because humans said them, that wouldn’t make me feel bad, I afterall have brains to criticise whatever I’m given or told.
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Oh, and the whole argument about the 2000yr old testimony or something like that, I wanted to use a novel I liked ,it’s called More than A Carpenter , but I read it three yrs back, I couldn’t remember most of the stuff, oh More than a Carpenter is written by some University professor and its actually about that testimony. Sadly I read alot and I never read a book twice so I could not remember much, no wonder I did an awful job at defending my faith .
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You may not be attending a church and therefore are not hearing “sermons,” but every book you have mentioned was written by a Christian … and each one of them is going to include the same stuff you would hear in a church.
Christianity is NOT a “natural thing.” It totally comes from hearing and/or reading the tales that were spun over 2000 years ago about an itinerant Jewish lad. Further, religion itself is geographically based. Try watching this video — https://youtu.be/xl_TrvIIcBY and you’ll see what I mean.
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I didn’t say the information I give was from books, the books I mentioned were just books I have read and they were on different topics. Oh,but I will watch that clip,
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Oh, I have watched the video, and it was okay,I loved it ,atleast before the last minutes where I realized the real reason for it but it was okay. Only it’s a half truth , and every half truth is a lie. First, I left my parents religion, I left the commonest faith and the video seemed to say that doesn’t happen ,secondly, if you are a Christian ,there are very many chances that you left your tribes god,your regions god, and you chose discomfort ,you chose to leave tradition ,first because we worship the God of Israel,we have to leave our gods for Him, that has gone on from the beginning, Christians have had to leave tradition,family or region gods and religions . Secondly because we commonly believe God has no grandchildren,only children,there’s always a very huge possibility that Christians born in Christian families don’t really know Christ,alot of times all they know is that it’s a family tradition, I can bet on it and it’s not so bad afterall, or leaving will be hard,or maybe God could be real,but they don’t know him most of the time . As for the choice on gods, you don’t have that,humans were created for worship ,God put that deep within so each and everyone one of us has and will have a god,it’s why idols were made by people,not just to create a soothing fable but to satisfy a real need in all humans ,the need to worship ,the gods are made from our image most of the time because we are selfish,our greatest idol is almost always ourselves. Atheism is just going to be another religion because you can’t running away from worship, your religion can be anything,even the so called modern science, but you will worship something,or somebody or some organization ,some philosophy or even yourself, but you will have a god, atheism is just a god you are choosing,there is no running away.
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humans were created for worship ,God put that deep within so each and everyone one of us has and will have a god
NO! Humans were not “created.” They evolved. Secondly, there is NO indication that worship is the “natural” state of humans. That is a belief implanted by those who follow religion because they want people to THINK it’s a natural state. It isn’t. We are born with NO attachment to anything, except our physical connection to our birth mother.
And NO … not every one of us has or will have a god. That is strictly a choice … not a given.
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You are entitled to a choice and your personal opinion. But it won’t change the truth. Plus ,why the rush, some truths just won’t be proven to be truths until the end of time.
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What criteria should people use to determine what is true?
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Oh well, I have never thought of that, I don’t think there’s any criteria that I know of. I don’t wanna be mean but I don’t think it’s bad or it’s a mistake that there’s no criteria for knowing the truth, I mean before I became a Christian, me giving my life to Christ was a leap into the unknown, faith, I didn’t have solid proof like I do now.
And in Christianity, Christ is truth,St. John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’
The truth is also the bible,asin the holy book, obviously,
“Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.”St. John 17:17
“You are a king, then!” said Pilate. Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”
“What is truth?” retorted Pilate. NIV, St. John 18: 37 -38 . Too bad Pilate didn’t wait for the answer, I’m almost certain it would have been,” IM TRUTH” but then again he still wouldn’t have gotten a criteria for finding that out.
So I don’t know if there’s a criteria. Oh but the Scriptural verses , I know you don’t think they are valid but I’m a Christian, I will obviously use them when asked a question even when they ain’t exactly helpful to the particular need. But I have never heard of any criteria, it’s like God just expected people to know,I mean when he revealed Himself to Abraham, somehow Abraham just knew he alone was God, in no time he abandoned his family idols,his parents ,his land and set off on an unknown journey. And when God revealed himself to Moses, Are you really God wasn’t one of the questions he asked, it’s like He just knew even as he tried to avoid obeying God’s commands. People just won’t get a criteria , it has never been that easy, if they are Chosen,they may get a powerful vision like Paul that will change everything, or like Peter they will spend time learning the truth and journeying closer to God before they choose Him, but for many thousands, it will be faith, choosing almost foolishly to plunge into the unknown, it could be because you suddenly recovered your sight or like me, you just happened to be seeking the truth, and God made a way, I was reading a Christian book about How to Pray and suddenly I made a choice of Christ and ended up learning more from God and the Bible than that book could ever teach me, I miraculously just walked into the unknown and like I always say,I don’t care how you interprete that. Point is, we Christians believe every journey to Christ,to the truth is a journey God writes, He seeks you before you seek Him. And before I became a Christian , this would just look so so unfair. Somehow ,there might not be a criteria for the truth because you can only find the Truth if it’s also seeking you and finding you, I don’t even know what I’m saying right now so I need to stop.Also this is my opinion,I don’t know if other Christians would agree with me . People just need to know they can’t know the truth on their own.
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solid proof
What, in your mind, constitutes “solid proof”?
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In my mind, I don’t know what solid proof is, all I know is that it’s alot more than what people usually know as solid proof. For instance, for me if you said you had solid proof that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and you were not a Christian, you would either be a liar or a crazy fellow. So for me,if you haven’t been to the Cross, if you haven’t been born again or received the Holy Spirit who indwells within you , if you haven’t known Christ, you don’t have solid proof and you can’t have it. That’s my opinion which I feel like I had already stated earlier.
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I don’t wanna be mean but I don’t think it’s bad or it’s a mistake that there’s no criteria for knowing the truth
So what if a powerful group of people in your country decides that women are not intelligent enough to hold positions in government, law, or medicine. When asked for evidence for this position, their answer is: “It is just what we feel is true.”
How would you respond if this powerful group tried to make this position on women the law of your country, barring you from working in the legal field, in the medical field, or in government?
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Oh, that has happened before, we fight back . I actually think this is different from knowing the Truth about God, for women, we could just claim if I took this test alongside the men or even a practical one and failed, you can freely make that claim. But for God, it’s different, He says we know He is God, He says we know there’s a Creator of all things, nature is proof of that and there’s so much proof around us and that we know it by heart.
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good.Psalms 53:1
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.Proverbs 1:7
Now that looks mean, but lucky for me they ain’t my words. Somehow God says if you were seeking the truth,you would find it sooner or later and asking for criteria or solid proof is actually just your way of trying to fight against truth, I mean can you assure me you look at the Truth according to Christianity without Bias ? Can you assure me you have also read books defending Christianity like More than a Carpenter by Josh McDowell which is actually a book about Jesus on trial and the testimony 2000 yrs ago and checked out both sides of the coin? You claim to be a truth seeker and most Christians are not which means you have the guts to check out all sides, can you tell me you have not only read books against Christianity but also those for Christianity because Christian books are different by the way? It’s quite common for humans that what we only care for is stuff that proves our claims right, since I became a Christian I have only read like four books against Christianity and like 20 for Christianity. We put most of our energy into what we care about. Prove to me that you are different, Gary , tell me the number of books defending Christianity that you have read after you made the decision that Christianity is a fantasy or a fallacy ?
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I’m only saying that because I think we agree with each other that Truth seekers are people who have the courage to read everything, to face the fact that they could be wrong when they are asked to. I haven’t ran across many books against Christianity and recently I tried reading one , actually like three months ago , I found I was biased ,maybe because it’s written by a Russian philosopher, so till now I have not finished reading it, I keep saying I will read it tomorrow and tomorrow never reaches and I have like only read a quarter of it so far . Prove me wrong by telling me you have read maybe ten Christian novels that are defending Christianity, prove you seek the Truth without Bias.
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Here is a list of all the books I have read regarding the claims of Christianity. As you can see, I’ve read more than 10 books written by Christian apologists and scholars.
https://lutherwasnotbornagaincom.wordpress.com/
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Okay, let me check out that list before getting back to you
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Oh , I checked out that link. But for me, if you are reading a review that Criticises Christianity, and reading books that will be Criticised already and not by you, you are breaking the truth rules. I’m following that website and I will check out some of that stuff if possible. Oh btw it’s funny that the person starts off by claiming Christianity is comfort because it is not. I’m a defender of the faith and it shall stay that way, I hope that’s the one thing you remember about me. Oh and I’m not ex Christian like you guys, yet in a way I kinda am ex Christian, I was a Christian and part of a Christian sect before I became a Christian, no denomination yet. But I’m up for any challenge.
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But I’m up for any challenge. 😀😅😂🤣🤣😄
Spoken like a True Christian™!!
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Thankyou actually. I’m honored to be considered one.😍
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Don’t puff your chest out too far. It was said in derision, not praise.
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Oh come on Nan, I’m not just doing law, I’m a literature scholar , I obviously know that. I just chose to look at the positive, my friends don’t usually think I’m a true Christian cos I don’t go to Church, I somehow missed Church at University even when there wasn’t a lockdown. I mean dah ,who couldn’t notice the sarcasm. Goodnight 😁
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I have never claimed that a Creator God does not exist.
However, since there are so many different religions on earth, each one claiming that their god is the Creator God, what method can we use to determine who is telling us the truth?
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Well, I don’t know that. But if you wanna, check out all sides of the story and try using your conscience, smarts etc , everything you have got, all the best. But like we Christians annoyingly love saying, if you are not gonna make a dumb mistake, you just may never know the truth , actually that’s something only I say.
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So there is no way to know which god is the true god? You just have to cross your fingers and pick one?
Why not do what you suggested doing regarding the issue of whether or not women are sufficiently intelligent to be lawyers, doctors, and government officials: “for women, we could just claim if I took this test alongside the men…”
For the equality of women, you suggested obtaining objective evidence for women’s ability to compete with men. Why not use objective evidence to determine which god is the Creator god?
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You know, that’s a choice God makes ,not men. One time in history a test was done, actually alot of times in the history of Israel. God could and can give objective evidence my friend, but if He chooses not to, He has a good reason for that. Today, I doubt he gives objective evidence because this is an era of mercy , most of the time, a test, objective evidence, literally meant Jugdement , whenever He proved He was God clearly, it was almost never to show Truth or clear doubts but it was to Judge, to Destroy, to shatter . So I don’t think it so bad that He won’t come down right now and give clear proof, I fear for you. When He reveals himself to his enemies, it’s never to show His face, He only shows His face to destroy them. So I advise only friends or to be clear Born again Christians to seek objective evidence,to ask that they see his face, people who already know Him so in a way already have solid proof because that’s safe play when you wanna stand before the Once who judges you, who seem the contents of your heart.Humans sadly don’t, we all don’t control God. We can’t whine alot or blaspheme and then bum, he shows His face, He holds the whole world in his hands.
Oh, don’t forget you can ignore all that, I’m not creating fear actually, I leave that to Hollywood horror movie Creators. You can always consider it Christian gibberish afterall. Goodnight
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Millions of Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, and Jews claim that God has revealed himself to them…yet they believe that the God who has revealed himself to them is not your God.
It doesn’t sound like you care whether or not there is good objective evidence for your selection of Yahweh/Jesus as your god. You are happy with your choice and don’t care if you are wrong.
I would bet most educated people look at life differently than you. To most educated people, having objective evidence for their position on issues is very important. Imagine a culture in which every person is the ultimate authority on every question of truth. What chaos! Your position seems to be very foolish…but that is your right.
Take care. Nice talking to you, Emilly!
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The other thing is, not every truth was created by Humans ,Nan, like you guys will try to claim and prove. There are truths humans could neither create nor understand . We didn’t create YHWH , we didn’t create Jesus Christ, you can claim we did,but that won’t change things. We Christians can create creeds, buildings, churches sometimes, we can create lies, we created confusion, differences, separation, churches of our own, different sects etc and in some eras, even we rose up against God in the guise of consolidating foundations and bringing in more believers for God. But we didn’t create God’s story, without God it’s not His story, it’s our story. But when we seek Jehovah, we are being awed by the greatest of mysteries. It’s charming that modern men and women who are still facing war, dysfunction, sickness , death, bloodshed , betrayal etc etc are still bold enough to say they have gotten to the human dream and they now have it all,funny really that the most dissatisfied era of people who don’t stop trying to find something new that they can be filled with but never stop yearning for I don’t even know what actually think they have achieved it all . This is a good analogy for us,
“My people have committed two sins: They have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water.”Jeremiah 2:13
Broken cisterns,that’s all everything we shall ever create will be ,our religions,creeds even those of science, evolution, materialism etc etc, everything will be a broken cistern.
Oh and don’t worry about me, I’m not stupidly betting my whole life on Jesus Christ, I mean I always knew there could be a possibility that no one religion is right or they are even all wrong that’s why before I became a Christian, I never told a muslim that Only Jesus is the way , I would never advice anyone on which religion to choose and one time my friend actually asked me that question, which religion she should join, I actually avoided the question.If she asked me now,I think I would tell her, no religion , but if you got to know Christ,you would have it all.
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“So yes, He is love and He created love, disturbing, right.”
No, not disturbing. Just incoherent.
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🤣🤣🤣
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Wait, before you get mad at me for laughing, I was laughing at me, k don’t know the meaning of the word incoherent 🤭
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Wait,you are free to make judgments as you please. I’m just so talkative ,I somehow wanna keep saying something even if it doesn’t make sense, sorry. But you are entitled to your views and conclusions . Oh if I was Japanese and really talking to you,I would take a bow and we would take different paths in peace, hopefully, I love the Japanese ways sometimes, look at me typing like I talk, I need to learn to keep quiet ,and I will. Good day Herald🙋.
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Hi Emily,
Have you ever read any books which perform a critical review of Christianity’s claims, in particular, the reality of miracles? If not I would encourage you to check out this very interesting book:
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Okay,I will,hope I can find it online,
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Okay ,wait up Gary ,I was just checking up so many of your posts today. Just realized what a fool I have been to answer you but then again I think you were delusional when you thought you could change a convert turned atheist’s mind , I mean you took up a battle you were never ever prepared for ,one you could never win,whom did you think you were, no human can make somebody Christian, no matter how hard you try, how come you didn’t know that. Also you went into that argument without knowing you might encounter issues or questions you have no answer for, for me that seems dumb, actually I get into silly arguments knowing if I get asked a question I can’t answer or encounter a theory that confounds me, I can just turn around and ask God , insult me all you can but literally,I mean God, not books,not preachers etc. I also read about your frustrations, the born again and again and again drama, that must have been frustrating, or you actually wanted it to be , not many people can claim to have been genuine like you claim and still knew nothing like you, actually you seem to me to have been okay with having gotten no answer ,I doubt I would have been, for me, no answer at that moment would have turned me either atheist or hypocrite immediately and I would have hated God so much, before the atheist former preacher even came into my life ,but you had found a way of moving on on your own, now that confuses me. Some how, you are angry and bold enough to insult. All the best on your journey of discovering Christianity as a cult, or claiming it’s a cult ,somehow you are having a hard time breaking free. But it’s gonna continue being a rough journey moreso if you intend to turn Christians unchristian and are actually committing the same error of thinking you can do it , for me it’s the same dead end, impossible. That’s why you need luck ,it’s a rough journey. Though I’m so tempted to note, God must love you so much, really. Oh and maybe like I think Swordjr once told you,you might wanna go yell at God and tell Him to give you solid proof instead of insisting that Christians must somehow give you something they don’t have the power to share, oh wait, I forgot, you are scared, so you can’t, you are so scared you will go out there, beg Him for proof, yell at Him for being so unjust and so mean to you , tell Him he is not real and you will prove it and then , you will get no answer, all you will get is silence and once again you will feel like such a big fool or then again, maybe you never really cared at all like you claim to have. I think you are scared and that’s why you pick on Christians who are like you, eager to answer an atheist, because they won’t be silent and if they are, instead of feeling rejected or anything else, you can instead feel like they just didn’t have an answer and decided to Run out of Cowardice. What happens when even Christians turn silent though?
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You are operating under a pleasant delusion that has no supporting objective evidence. I’m not interested in debating someone who does not value objective evidence or critical thinking skills. Take care.
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“no human can make somebody Christian, no matter how hard you try, how come you didn’t know that”
If that’s actually the case then what was the point of The Great Commission?
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Oh, I don’t wanna explain that. Like I said earlier on, it was foolish of me already to wanna answer any Questions. If you people know so much about Christianity,you should know that. I’m not making the dumb mistake of humbly supplying answers again, oh wait, I’m a Christian and somehow I’m still struggling with pride, but that’s okay. But this was Gary’s post and me and him are kinda done chit chatting. We don’t always get our questions answered afterall, good day Sir .
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“Oh, I don’t wanna explain that.”
Nobody is forcing you to explain anything, but don’t expect us to do much more than ignore you if you’re just here to put shade on Gary. If you’re not interested in conversation then I’ll simply block you and be done with it.
“If you people know so much about Christianity,you should know that.”
Christianity is an absolutely huge tent and Christians hold a lot of different beliefs. There are currently over 45000 Christian denominations so, aside from some very basic points, what you actually believe isn’t obvious to me just because you’re a Christian.
The version of Christianity that you subscribe to seems to believe that humans cannot convert others (are you some kind of a Calvinist?), yet your Bible had Jesus put his disciples forward on The Great Commission. If Jesus already knew that people wouldn’t be converted why send out his disciples?
The reason I ask questions because I want to understand what you believe, and why you believe it. I’d like to get some clarity on what you believe, because this doesn’t make sense to me.
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Hey, I checked out your blog too, interesting.Im nolonger interested in conversation really, as you must have already noticed and you are free to block me, I don’t care, I don’t wanna know. My apologies for not giving you an answer though, I’m just nolonger interested, not in a mean kind of way but I’m not in the mood, I hope you excuse me, sorry. Oh , but if you think of or ask any other questions, I won’t be answering those too so I apologize in advance. Sorry 😔😔😔. Hope you do find a Christian or website or group out of the many thousands that knows what I’m talking about. Have a blast criticising what you ain’t familiar with later on, I really hope I don’t get to know of it at all. I have really messed up big time , really. What’s most sad is I can’t say for sure that God wanted me to do it, I guess I’m listening to me alot more these days, huge mistake.
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Ok. Please move to another blog. Thank you.
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Oh, the title of your post should be , No Christians, all your eye witness testimonies are not reliable. 😂😂Just a joke actually
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Came across this news story this morning about false eyewitness testimony, so thought I’d put it up here as it’s relevant to to this post’s original theme.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/rcmp-says-shelby-patton-firearm-holstered-eyewitness-account-false-1.6069635
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Maybe they had special “godly” powers that allowed them to see through walls and such? 😁😅
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