Do Atheists Worship Science?

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Christian: Although most atheists do not consciously view science as their God, it functions as God in their lives. 

Gary: I have never prayed to science to bless my food, keep my children safe, or to have a nice day. I have never asked science to forgive me of my bad deeds and thoughts. I have never asked science to be my lord and master in exchange for living happily ever after in some version of Never Never Land.

Sorry. Your analogy fails, my Christian friend.

Seven Types of Atheism' Review: Better Off Without Him? - WSJ

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59 thoughts on “Do Atheists Worship Science?

    1. It is frustrating when Christians change the meaning of the word to fit their apologetic purpose. Reminds me of a line I used to hear back in my Christian days, that religion is man reaching out to God with good works, but Christianity ( and the right kind of Christianity- our kind) is God reaching out to man, and so Christianity is not a religion.
      Even at the time, I remember thinking, that’s not really what the the word religion means, or how it is defined by the dictionary, or anyone else who is not in this evangelical group.

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      1. Theists are experts at twisting words to fit their purposes. They do it with their holy book all the time.

        Does six DAYS really mean six DAYS? No. The word “day” used in these passages actually means thousands and thousands of years. (the Creation Story)

        Does the “entire world” mean the entire world? No. The phrase “entire world” really means a small local region of the planet. (Noah’s Flood)

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    1. Love it. Very funny.

      Although, I can’t recall any atheist blowing himself up along with a group of innocent bystanders in the name of atheism. That always seems to be the handy work of theists.

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      1. Well, I can think of a few atheist regimes who purposely exterminated millions of Christians because they were convinced that religion had to be eradicated for the betterment of humanity.

        In any case, the South Park episode is a three-part episode entitled, “Go God Go.”

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        1. And I can think of many theistic regimes, including Christian regimes, who purposely exterminated millions of people because they were convinced that any other religion or belief system other than their own was evil and had to be eradicated for the betterment of humanity.

          Can we agree that national policy should be based on reason, science, and the belief that every person has the inalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness regardless of the dogma or dictates of any ideology?

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          1. I was simply responding to your implication that atheism hasnt been responsible for mass murder.

            What Christian regime has been reaponsible for purposely exterminating millions of people?

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            1. -Charlemagne’s conquest and slaughter of the Saxons and their forced Christianization (or execution).
              -The Crusades (mass murder of Muslims, Jews, and even Orthodox Christians) in the name of western Christianity.
              -the Inquisition by the Spanish monarchs.
              -Russian pogroms against Jews, orchestrated by the Christian monarchs.
              -Adolf Hitler’s “defense of Christianity” against the godless Bolshevik hordes.
              -Manifest Destiny (the wholesale slaughter of hundreds of thousands if not millions of “pagan” native peoples in the New World or forced Christianization).

              …to name a few.

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              1. Charlemagne: 4500 Saxons
                Crusades: Were actual wars, not purposeful extermination
                The “people’s crusade” in 1095 that went off before the actual Crusaders, did kill many Jews in the Rhineland–not millions, by any stretch of the imagination
                The Spanish Inquisition: Tried about 45,000 cases over a 200 year span, resulting in 825 executions.
                I don’t have the numbers relating to Russian killing of Jews (although I doubt it was in the millions). But I do know that Communist Russia which held to atheism as an ideology DID exterminate well over 50 million people…and tortured millions in gulags to boot.
                In no way can one attribute Hitler’s genocide to Christianity.
                I’m not sure you can attribute the killing of Indians to Christianity, either, being.

                Obviously there has been horrible acts done by regime and kingdoms who claim to be Christian, but nothing totaling the millions you are claiming. And we do have actual stats for a number of the things you mentioned–nowhere near millions.

                By contrast, Communist regimes in the 20th century alone were responsible for the killing of over 100 MILLION people. There simply is NO comparison.

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                1. Ask Jews if they believe that Christian theology and teaching had any influence on Hitler’s “Final Solution”.

                  The hatred of Jews endemic in the “Christian world” can be easily traced to the anti-Semitism found in the Christian holy book and the anti-Semitism of the early Christian Church. The Gospel of John, in particular, is considered by many Jews as very anti-Semitic and the cause of much of the suffering, persecution, and murder of thousands if not millions of Jewish people over the last 2,000 years.

                  If you don’t believe me, google any Jewish website on the subject, or call up your local rabbi.

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                  1. Allow me to comment on another thing you wrote:
                    “Can we agree that national policy should be based on reason, science, and the belief that every person has the inalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness regardless of the dogma or dictates of any ideology?”

                    You’ve packed a whole lot into that sentence. Do you really want a national policy that is BASED on science? After all, the Soviet’s and Nazi’s extermination were very much based on science, or so they claimed. But if you are going condemn their atrocities, you can’t do it based on “science.”

                    And then there is the question, “How do you know human beings have ‘inalienable rights’ to things like life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Upon what are you basing that assertion?

                    So, sure, generally speaking, I can agree with your statement, but I think it is more of a nice-sounding slogan that doesn’t have much to be based on from your point of view and worldview.

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  1. You claimed above that you knew of many “Christian regimes, who purposely exterminated millions of people because they were convinced that any other religion or belief system other than their own was evil and had to be eradicated for the betterment of humanity.”

    You have failed to name one that fits that description. No one denies that the past 2,000 years of Western Europe/America which has been nominally Christian has had its share of horrible things done in the name of Christ. But you were talking about Christian REGIMES that engaged in PURPOSEFUL EXTERMINATION of MILLIONS of people. You have failed to name one. The only REGIMES that have, in fact, purposely exterminated millions of people have been 20th century Communist regimes, as well as Hitler, who was by no means a Christian.

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    1. Your original statement was:

      What Christian regime has been reaponsible [sic] for purposely exterminating millions of people?

      I listed numerous Christian regimes which purposely killed millions of people (Jews, Muslims, atheists, “pagans”). Add that to the millions of non-Christians who have faced massive persecution for refusing to be Christianized.

      If you don’t believe that Christian regimes are responsible for the deaths of millions of Jews, ask Jews, don’t take my word for it. Jews believe that Christian regimes and Christians personally are responsible for the deaths of millions of Jews.

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      1. Sources: –https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews#Western_and_Christian_antisemitism
        –https://www.ushmm.org/research/about-the-mandel-center/initiatives/ethics-religion-holocaust/articles-and-resources/christian-persecution-of-jews-over-the-centuries/christian-persecution-of-jews-over-the-centuries

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      2. No you didn’t. Many of the regimes you mentioned were responsible for the killing of thousands, or in the case of the Spanish Inquisition, 826.

        And Nazi Germany wasn’t a Christian regime by any stretch of the imagination.

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        1. Baloney. How many people total were massacred during the Crusades? Entire cities were wiped out by Christian crusaders.

          Hitler was a Catholic. He negotiated a concordat with the pope. He never renounced being a Christian. Hitler claimed to be the last defense of Christian Europe against the atheistic Bolsheviks. Read your history books, not your evangelical propaganda, Joel.

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          1. I think it is safe to say you don’t know a whole lot about the Crusades. But again, the death that happened in the Crusades was a result of WAR, not a purposeful attempt of a Christian regime to commit genocide.

            And you also don’t know much about Hitler either. I can share with you many things he said about Christianity. He hated it.

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          2. Now, if you were to say, “There have been nominally Christian countries throughout history in which very bad things have happened and in which innocent people were killed in the name of Christianity,” I would agree. That would be a truthful statement.

            But you claimed that there had been many “Christian regimes” that have engaged in “purposeful extermination” of people based solely on the idea that their extermination was for the betterment of humanity.

            That is simply untrue. What you’ve described is, in fact, the Communist and Nazi regimes of the 20th century, not any Christian regime throughout history.

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            1. I know that Christians want to deny that the government of Germany from 1933 to 1945 was Christian, but that is false.

              I’m not going to argue with you further. Check with your local rabbi on this issue!

              Bye, Joel!

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                  1. I didnt say he was an atheist. Communist regimes were atheistic. Hitler tried to revive Norse paganism.

                    But as a matter of fact, the only regimes that did the things you’ve wrongly claimed Christian regimes have done are the Nazi regime and the various Communist regimes of the 20th century.

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                    1. THE ATHEIST ATROCITIES FALLACY

                      The atheist atrocities fallacy is a multifaceted and multidimensional monster, comprised of a cocktail of illogically contrived arguments. It is, at its core, a tu quoque fallacy, employed to deflect justified charges of religious violence, by erroneously charging atheism with similar, if not worse, conduct. But it is much more than this, for within its tangled and mangled edifice can be found the false analogy fallacy, the poisoning of the well fallacy, the false cause fallacy, and even an implied slippery slope fallacy.

                      Source: https://areomagazine.com/2017/02/17/the-atheist-atrocities-fallacy-hitler-stalin-and-pol-pot/

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      3. And even in medieval Europe, in which there certainly was antisemitism, there was never a Christian regime that “purposely exterminated” million of Jews simply because they were Jews.

        This isn’t even up for debate. I’m just talking about basic historical reality.

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  2. Gary, again, this is a simple matter of historical reality.
    First, the Soviet Union, as well as the various other Communist regimes of the 20th century, were ideologically atheist and purposely attempted to exterminate Christians.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union

    Second, if that silly video is illustrative of your intellectual acumen…lol…Sorry, Hitler was not a Christian. His own statements and quotes bear this out.

    Third, are you going to say with a straight face that the “Taiping Heavenly Kingdom,” whose leader (in the mid-19th century!) claimed to be a BROTHER of Jesus, represents historical Christianity? REALLY?

    Again, you are foolish to try to make this argument. To do so is to be in denial of history.

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          1. Adherence to the traditional Christian faith. Not claiming you’re a 19th century brother of Jesus, or Mormonism, or Jehovah Witnesses.

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              1. In any case, you have yet to identify a “Christian regime” that has purposely targeted any people group for extinction, totalling in millions of deaths.

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                1. As I’ve now told you multiple times, call up your local Jewish rabbi and ask him if he is aware of any Christian nation/government which has purposely targeted any group of people for extinction, totaling in millions of deaths.

                  I dare you.

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                  1. Or you can just check history books to know you are wrong.

                    Again, targeting a specific people for extinction is what Communist and Nazi regimes did in the 20th Century.

                    There have been nominally Christian countries that have been anti-Semitic and have harassed and persecuted Jews, but you have yet to mention ONE that has “purposely targeted people for EXTINCTION.”

                    You can bloviate and generalize all you want. You still havent given any clear evidence.

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  3. https://www.historyonthenet.com/was-hitler-a-christian
    (From the article):
    Most historians today agree that Hitler was not a Christian in any meaningful sense. Neil Gregor, for instance, warns that Hitler’s “superficial deployment of elements of Christian discourse” should not mislead people to think that Hitler shared the views of “established religion.” Michael Burleigh argues that Nazism was anticlerical and despised Christianity. He recognizes that Hitler was not an atheist, but “Hitler’s God was not the Christian God, as conventionally understood.”

    Hitler’s anti-Christian outlook remained largely submerged before 1924, because—as Hitler himself explained in Mein Kampf— he did not want to offend possible supporters. In August 1924, while he was in Landsberg Prison, Hitler privately told Hess about having to camouflage his opposition to religion, just as he had to hide his enmity toward alcohol.

    Hitler’s tirade against Christianity in Mein Kampf, including the threat to demolish it, diverged remarkably from his normal public persona. He was usually more circumspect, refraining from open criticism of Christianity.

    On December 13, 1941, for example, just two days after declaring war on the United States, he told his Gauleiter (district leaders) that he was going to annihilate the Jews, but he was postponing his campaign against the church until after the war, when he would deal with them.

    In fact, Hitler contemptuously called Christianity a poison and a bacillus and openly mocked its teachings. In a long diatribe ridiculing many core Christian teachings, Hitler told his colleagues that the Christian concept of heaven was insipid and undesirable. After scoffing at doctrines such as the Fall, the Virgin Birth, and redemption through the death of Jesus, Hitler stated, “Christianity is the most insane thing that a human brain in its delusion has ever brought forth, a mockery of everything divine.”

    In February 1942, Hitler again scoffed at the basic teachings of Christianity, sarcastically relating the story of humanity from a Christian standpoint. He implied that God was responsible for original sin and commented that God’s method of redemption by sending his Son was a “murderous subterfuge.” Then, according to Hitler, when others did not accept these strange teachings, the church tortured them into submission.

    Another theme that surfaced frequently in Hitler’s monologues of 1941–42 was that the sneaky first-century rabbi Paul was responsible for repackaging the Jewish worldview in the guise of Christianity, thereby causing the downfall of the Roman Empire.

    While Hitler often associated Jesus with Aryan traits and socialism, he consistently lambasted Christianity as Jewish and communist. He denigrated the “Jew-Christians” of the fourth century for destroying Roman temples and even called the destruction of the Alexandrian library a “Jewish-Christian deed.”

    In the end, the evidence is preponderant against Hitler embracing any form of Christianity for most of his adult life. Was Hitler a Christian? No.

    Even though he tried to palm himself off as a Christian when it served his political purposes, none of his friends and comrades considered him one.

    He also did not believe that Jesus’s death had any significance other than showing the perfidy of the Jews, nor did he believe in Jesus’s resurrection. In private conversations and monologues he railed at Christianity because it had followed the lead of that insidious Jewish rabbi Paul. Despite Hitler’s disingenuous public statements, and despite his esteem for (his anti-Semitic version of) Jesus, it is abundantly clear that Hitler did not consider himself a Christian.

    THERE YOU GO, GARY! Anyone who insists that Hitler was a Christian or that the Nazi Regime was Christian is on the same intellectual level of a flat-earther or a holocaust denier. Simply put, the person is not dealing with historical reality. (And if you notice, some of Hitler’s comments ABOUT Christianity are eerily similar to many modern day atheists’ assessment of Christianity).

    It takes a big man, an honest man, to admit that he is wrong. Can you do that, Gary?

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    1. –The governments that funded the Crusades that murdered entire cities were CHRISTIAN.
      –The forced Christianization or execution of hundreds of thousands of Germanic, Nordic, and Slavic peoples were carried out by Christian governments.
      –the mass slaughter of Jews in pogroms were carried out by the Christian government of Russia.
      –the mass slaughter of Jews in Europe was carried out by the Christian government of Germany.

      Stop using the Atheist Atrocity Fallacy to excuse the barbaric behavior of YOUR religion!!!

      Now. Go away!

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      1. Again, your original assertion has been proven false. You cannot name one “Christian Regime” that purposely tried to exterminate entire races of people totaling in the millions. The only regimes to have done that were the Communist and Nazi regimes of the 20th century. –Please, just admit that your original claim has been proven false and that the only regimes who have done what you claim “Christian Regimes” have done have been, in fact, Communist Regimes who hold to atheism as an ideology and the Nazi Regime, whose leader, Hitler, was attempting to revive Nordic paganism.

        I have readily acknowledged that throughout the past 2000 years of history that really bad things (persecutions, bigotry, racism, etc.) have happened in nominally Christian countries. That is an undisputable fact. But then, you can point to horrible things done in every country at all times.

        Again, the Crusades were wars–and you obviously don’t know much about them anyway.

        And again, the regime that slaughtered European Jews in the early 20th century was not a “Christian government.” The Nazis were not Christians. Hitler was not a Christian. The more you insist they were Christian, the more you lose any shred of credibility. You’re not arguing against me; you’re arguing against reality.

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  4. Gary, are you feeling that a culture based in reason and science would necessarily be more humanitarian than one rooted in Judeo-Christian heritage that also respects reason and science?

    It seems to me there are a lot of variables involved in this beyond whether a culture is more or less “religious.”
    If eradication of religion automatically makes society better, well, how can we explain communist China under Mao or the gulag?

    Suppose it’s really true for whatever reason that humans are innately spiritual creatures?

    Couldn’t a healthy and balanced Christianity serve as an alternative and counter to more authoritarian strains of religion such as militant Islam or some other toxic cult?

    I know we’ve discussed this before, but I truly have a difficult time understanding for you why it has to be either or…

    Also, I want to say that from my studies, I really think that many of these conflicts of the past were rooted as much in cultural and political differences, quests for power as much as they were in simply religious conflicts.

    Everything feels more complex to me.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. I don’t mean to speak for Gary, but I tend to think he sees any and all religions as unnecessary. The very fact that you mention “toxic cults” is evidence of what “religion” does to people.

      I know from your many comments that you belong to a more liberal thinking Christian denomination, but that’s the point. You may be broad-minded, but your neighbor who belongs to a evangelical, holy-roller, hard-nosed denomination is anything but. It “religion” were non-existent, it seems to me there would be a “few” less problems in this world … especially since it’s been the impetus for so much dissension and destruction over the ages.

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      1. I can understand your thinking if you’re feeling that toxic religion is the root rather than a symptom of the problem which runs even more deeply, IMO.

        As I think about this Nan, this probably comes to the root of one of the biggest differences between non-theists and Christian believers.

        There is just not the same view /understanding relating to human fallenness or brokenness, however, this is expressed. What draws people to these harmful and authoritarian cults in the first place? Some people are born into them, but it goes deeper than that, I think.

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        1. “Human fallenness or brokenness” — two frequently repeated words in the Christian language used to make human beings consider themselves LESS than what they truly are.

          In fact, humans are a very strong, hardy, and resilient species. And contrary to what the writers of Genesis would have one believe, they have been around a very long time and continue to endure. Even thrive.

          Liked by 1 person

          1. But, is this a misperception of what this all means. If it’s true that we’re made in the image of God, of course, we are strong, hardy, and resilient. As the Scripture says, “We are fearfully and wonderfully made.” But, at the same time are we as a species everything that we were meant to be?

            Nan, there is real evil in the world. Look at the mess our country is in right now?

            You know, I was actually reflecting on some of this stuff last Sunday. People interface with Christian teaching in different ways. Well, for instance, consider the confession of sin…

            For many, this provides a good opportunity for honest self-reflection, to focus on our lives and think about if there are any ways we might be harming ourselves or others, and if so to take steps toward reconciliation and an amendment of life. In my own life, understanding my own weakness and failure and God’s love and grace has helped lead me to greater sensitivity and forgiveness toward others. I’m less likely to be judgemental.

            But, it doesn’t cause me to think less of myself at all or to walk around feeling down.

            But, on the other hand, suppose someone with a tendency toward low self-esteem or OCD comes to the confession of sin. If there is not good teaching and balance in the church, this could easily lead to feelings of worthlessness, helplessness, an unhealthy preoccupation with every fault. They might feel perpetually guilty and condemned.

            I know I’ve said it tons of times but for me, these issues are deep and complex. We have to deal with the root of things in our lives, myself included.

            People can walk away from toxic faith, but OCD or low self-esteem can simply manifest in different ways. On the other hand, there are people who experience a good measure of encouragement and healing through their faith as well.

            I think all of us should be open…and not throw the “baby out with the bathwater,” as one commentator has stated.

            I can honestly say that I’ve greatly benefited from conversations with non-theists. They’ve caused me to really think deeply about what I believe and why..to just dig deeper. It is always good to consider why there might be another perspective, IMO.

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            1. “But, at the same time are we as a species everything that we were meant to be?”

              What exactly do you think we are “meant” to be? I don’t see any reason to believe that we have some intrinsic purpose. Any meaning or purpose in our lives is self imposed.

              “Nan, there is real evil in the world. Look at the mess our country is in right now?”

              A mess you say? The big mess that I see is coming from a lame-duck President who continues to insist that Biden won by fraud yet presents no credible evidence of such. That mess has been made by one person who refuses to take any responsibility for his actions, or even recognize that he legitimately lost the election. His gullible supporters continue to push their conspiracy theories, and insist that something nefarious happened.

              The reality is that Biden won the electoral college and at this point it’s over. There was no fraud, and there was nothing nefarious that happened during the election. The controversy was entirely manufactured and there are real repercussions that are happening to society because of this nonsense.

              Frankly, this entire problem could have been averted if:
              1. The GOP wasn’t so terrified of Trump’s mean tweets and they actually stood up for the constitution rather than their own self interests
              2. Trump’s followers weren’t so damned gullible, and didn’t believe everything that came out of that fools mouth
              3. Trump wasn’t such a self-entitled narcissist.

              Unless the mess you’re talking about is something else, in which case you have to be more specific.

              “In my own life, understanding my own weakness and failure and God’s love and grace has helped lead me to greater sensitivity and forgiveness toward others.”

              Sure, but being a theist is hardly a requirement for this.Having empathy, being able to look at the comprehend the consequences of your actions, and wanting others to do well, is all that is required. We as humans have evolved a strong desire for fairness, and this was very likely true of our very distant ancestors as we can see that same desire play out in chimps and other primates.

              Religions have tried desperately to claim ownership of morality but the reality is that morality precedes religion and can be explained naturally.

              Liked by 1 person

              1. Hi, Herald, what do you think about this article from Victor Davis Hansen. It seems to me good advice. But, what are your feelings?

                https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/dec/14/victor-davis-hanson-the-trump-hydroxy-effect/

                It is my feeling that there was definitely election irregularities and some fraud. Whether this was of the magnitude to actually overturn the election, I don’t know.

                I think at this point, we have no choice but to move on together. But, I think this deep alienation and hatred between groups is symptomatic of “sin” in the world. We have become alienated from God and from each other. There are racial, ethnic, political divides, you name it. Difference ending in violence.

                This is not how God intended us as a species to live. Christians believe that among other things, Christ came to reconcile us to God and to each other. And, as a Christian believer, I want to walk out that reconciliation in my own life, to participate in the kingdom of God, so to speak.

                You’re seeing this in purely evolutionary terms. I’m also looking at spiritual implications.

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                1. “But, I think this deep alienation and hatred between groups is symptomatic of “sin” in the world.”

                  Just about anything can be attributed to “sin.” Sin is a disease that was made up so that religions could sell you a cure. The problem is that their cure appears to be nothing but snake oil.

                  “We have become alienated from God and from each other. There are racial, ethnic, political divides, you name it. Difference ending in violence.”

                  Doesn’t it seem strange that as North America has become more and more secular over the last decades that violent crime has been steadily decreasing? The same pattern largely holds true in western Europe as well. Apparently become more estranged from God, people are committing less violent crime. This would seem to fire a massive hole in the idea that alienating from God is somehow a problem.

                  Human societies have always had problems. That’s what happens when people with different ideas come together. More important questions are if we can we find what is driving these problems and address them. I see a lot of Trump supporters as being angry at a system that has left them behind, and have little to no political power. This is the kind of thing that populists love to exploit.

                  As far as I see it, more Jesus isn’t going to solve our problems. It never has and it never will. Believing in Jesus just gives people pleasant feelings, but that’s about all it does. In some ways I see it like how an addict is happier when they’re high, but it doesn’t mean it’s doing anything good for them.

                  “Christians believe that among other things, Christ came to reconcile us to God and to each other.”

                  I’m familiar with Christian beliefs. There are also people who believe that Elvis is still alive, that the Democrats are running a pedophile sex ring for the global elites, and that mRNA vaccines will alter your DNA. People believe all sorts of strange things. The fact that a belief is common and popular doesn’t tell us that a belief is true.

                  I don’t need Jesus to be able to reconcile with others. Reconciling with others has been possible since long before Jesus. As for being reconciled with God, I fail to understand how our actions can ever cause God the need to be reconciled with. God is supposed to be omnipotent, and omniscient. If God wants something he doesn’t need us to get it. If God exists then God knew exactly what was going to happen when it created the universe the way it did. If Christ is the best such a being can do than such a being is practically impotent.

                  Liked by 2 people

                  1. Herald, do we know, though that the cause is a decrease in religion is the cause? Maybe the poverty rate has also decreased. What if people, were religious and wealthy? Maybe the violent crime rate would be even lower? I don’t know Herald, and I’m partly teasing. 😊. But, seriously, I would agree that folks can be religious and just as wicked as the day is long. Being religious, and making a conscious decision to follow Christ is not necessarily the same thing. But, let me ask this, apart from some of the negatives, do you see any ways that the Christian faith has made a positive impact in Western culture over time or do you think it has all been harmful and negative?

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                    1. Can I respond to your question? IMO, I think the establishment itself has done both, but the individuals who are behind the Christian faith are the true culprits because they are the ones who “lead the sheep” — not to safety, but to a wilderness where (imaginary) predators abound.

                      Liked by 1 person

                    2. “Herald, do we know, though that the cause is a decrease in religion is the cause?”

                      Nope, and in fact it almost certainly isn’t the cause, because there’s usually a lag time between society getting better and people becoming less religious. People become less religious as their lives become more secure. Lower levels of violence, better financial security, food and shelter security, etc, all play a role in making people more likely to give up their religious beliefs.

                      My point was that it shows a significant problem with your hypothesis: That our alienation from God is leading us to violence. Yet, when we actually look at the data we find that we have become more secular and less violent. If your hypothesis was true we should be seeing an increase in violence as we become more secular.

                      “But, let me ask this, apart from some of the negatives, do you see any ways that the Christian faith has made a positive impact in Western culture over time or do you think it has all been harmful and negative?”

                      Sure. I can think of positive things, but none of the positives that I would attribute to Christians being faithful was ever a prerequisite for any good they’ve done.

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            2. At this point, Becky, all I can say is to continue to “think deeply” about what you believe. Hopefully one of these days, you’ll come to see that it’s all based on teachings and instruction meant to debase and devalue the human spirit — and then “renew” it by denouncing the “sin” in your life and calling upon some unseen entity to make you all better.

              Each of us is a wondrous creature simply because we exist. To allow others to convince us that we are “fallen” and need “saving” is a fallacy to the first degree. And yet people — even intelligent people like yourself — continue to fall for it.

              Liked by 2 people

    2. I have never said that any atheist society is better than any theistic society. I obviously would prefer living in Christian Great Britain over the atheist Soviet Union during the 1950’s.

      Atheism is simply the lack of belief in invisible superheroes (gods). Atheism gives ZERO basis for how one should live and interact with others. I believe that democratic, secular humanism is the best model for how one should live one’s life and how a government should operate.

      https://secularhumanism.org/what-is-secular-humanism/secular-humanism-defined/

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      1. My huge concern as a Christian believer is that given the reality of fallen human nature, I’m not confident that people would automatically move from atheism into democratic secular humanism.

        They might, but they also might go in the direction of something like materialism or nihilism. I feel like probably there is a higher chance of someone moving from Christianity into secular humanism because many of the principles of humanism are already embedded there in their thinking and practice.

        But, I can’t see that someone would come to humanism based in science or reason alone. I could be wrong, though. But, I’m not able to follow the trajectory automatically.

        Liked by 1 person

        1. Empathy and altruistic behavior can be found among many different mammalian species. We do not turn into cannibals once we abandon belief in invisible superheroes (gods).

          Like

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