Gary:
…You can argue all day long that morality was established by this same generic Creator god, but you cannot prove that morality was established by the Christian god as the Christian god’s behavior in the Old Testament is the exact opposite of what even Christians today consider moral. The Christian god of the OT was a vindictive self-absorbed, blood-thirsty, baby-slaughtering monster. It is impossible that this psychopath is the author of anything remotely resembling morality.
Calvinist Christian:
It is obvious that you are ignorant of the fact that you are a sinner deserving of God’s righteous wrath because of your immoral deeds which you’ve practiced every day. If He were to snuff out your life at this very moment in the most violent way, you would only be getting what you deserve, and in it, you would have no just objection. Moreover, you deserve to spend eternity suffering the punishment due you for your sin in Adam and for all your actual sins which flow from it, which punishment, every man, woman, and child who ever lived deserves. The fact that God shows mercy at all is a testament to His character.
Gary:
Good people. No one deserves to be burned alive in horrific agony in a pit of fire, for all eternity, for ANY crime, let alone for eating some god’s forbidden fruit. The story of Adam and Eve, the walking/talking snake, and forbidden fruit that gives one the knowledge of Good and Evil is blatant, superstitious, ignorant, goat-herding, nomadic, ancient middle-eastern nonsense.
If any other culture or religion taught this silly nonsense you would laugh at them, but you buy this nonsense hook and sinker because your parents told you it was true when you were an impressionable toddler.
Conservative Christianity perpetuates a cult of fear, not love. Conservative Christianity follows the same practices of every other cult on the face of the earth: They entice you in with promises of love and “eternal life”, but keep you in using terror—leave and you will be burned alive…for ever. Cults like conservative Christianity also tell you not to listen to outsiders. “Outsiders do not have the special insight that insiders do”, and these cults tell you that the leaders of the cult have special knowledge which you as a layperson cannot grasp (You’re stupid, so just do what we say.)
It is nonsense, friends. Don’t let their theological psyco-babble intimidate you. If Eric and Steve were truly following the teachings of Jesus that would respond to my criticism with love and compassion, not with self-righteous hate, salivating at the mouth for my imminent demise and eternal torture in Yahweh’s cauldron of fire.
Escape the fundamentalist/conservative Christian cult!
Escaping Christian Fundamentalism 
“…No one deserves to be burned alive in horrific agony in a pit of fire, for all eternity, for ANY crime….”
Not Hitler? Not Pol Pot? Not the pervert who tortures children before murdering them for their own pleasure?
What punishments would you prescribe? Mere execution? How do you know that your punishments would satisfy justice? What is justice according to you?
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I don't believe in capital punishment. I don't believe that killing someone for killing someone is moral. I would recommend life in prison with no chance of parol.
No, no one, including the evil mass murderers Hitler and Pol Pot, deserves to be burned alive for all eternity.
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“parole”
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Oh, gosh! You're also a liberal! You really have went into the ditch!
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According to christianity, what one “deserves” and what one is eligible to receive are to entirely different things where “justice” plays no effective role. One only need confess their sins and profess their fealty to, and accept jesus and as their personal lord and savior … then POOF … all is forgiven and you get a key card to heaven's gate … no longer need to fret over roasting millions of jews if you do this.
I'm glad the mass murders of recent generations are dead, they earned it … and not soon enough. But to continue to hope beyond hope that hitler is roasting for eternity in the lake of fire next to some hindu kid who stole some food for his family (violates commandment not to steal) … somehow that seems to be the antithesis of “justice”
Thankfully there is no heaven or god or lake of fire to worry about such inequities being perpetrated by a non-existent god.
@Gary – glad to see you opened conversation again 🙂
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It makes no difference what you believe Gary. What is, is. Just because you think otherwise or it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't make it true or not true. If hell is there, regardless of your beliefs or your reasoning, it is there.
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True. And if the Muslim Hell exists it makes no difference whether *you* believe in it, it is there….and waiting for infidels like you.
There are many, many exclusivist religions who threaten mankind with terrible consequences for not believing their supernatural tale. We can't believe them all, can we? We can't play it safe, hedge our bets, and believe them all. You can't be a good Christian and a good Muslim at the same time. Therefore our only good option is to dismiss them all unless one of them provides sufficient evidence to believe their story is true.
Christianity has failed to do that for me.
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Thanks for the comment, Robert.
Yes, its nice to have the comments back.
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“If hell is there, regardless of your beliefs or your reasoning, it is there.” ~anon
Correct … but there's the rub, if any other religion presents objectively credible evidence to support their religion over all others, do you REALLY think all followers of competing religions will jump on board?
For argument's sake let's say some mountain clibers came down from Mount Olympus and produced irrefutable proof/evidence that Zeus resides there with the rest of the Greek gods (and evidence that there were NO other gods) … do you REALLY think orthodox/fundamental christians will accept that evidence? I highly suspect they will dismiss that evidence out of hand and continue on with their christianity unwavering.
See, that's the difference from the faithful and the skeptical … the skeptic, once that evidence was tested and verified, would accept the new truth, whereas a larger segment of faithful would stick fingers in their ears saying “lalala yahweh/allah is love and the one true god … their are no others and nothing you can do will convince me otherwise”
Now back to reality – there is no evidence for any gods, hells, heavens or even supernatural phenomena to even be a suggestive basis for such things. Skeptics just can't buy in without evidence and in fact the evidence is very suggestive that each and every religion was created by men in localized, specific cultures of their age. These religions do not correctly enlighten us to any of the discoveries made by science … and one would expect at minimum, the word of any god should at least have a working knowledge of the universe (since they did, after all, supposedly created it) … yet time after time, science shows that the word of any gods have zero clue as to how the universe/cosmos works.
And … regarding christianity in particular … why did it take several councils to “decide” on what was the “true word of god” that should go into the bible … should it have been obvious and self evident or was the christian god playing “hide the salami” with scrolls to test man to figure out which were REALLY his word and which were bogus … and if that is the case, do you REALLY trust the MEN who “decided”? Sorry, no WAY I can do that.
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Good points, Robert.
One interesting thing that I have noticed about many conservative Christians with whom I have discussed the evidence for their belief system is that when you debate them regarding their Faith's supernatural claims, they suddenly become philosophers. They ask you such deep philosophical questions as, “How do you determine reality?”, “How do you know that YOU really exist?”, “How do you know that you don't exist only in your own mind? If you can't be sure that YOU exist, how can you be so sure that (the Christian) God does not exist and that the Bible's supernatural claims do not exist?”
However, ask these same Christian “philosophers” about the supernatural claims of Islam, Hinduism, Mormonism, and other supernatural based Faiths, and they will wave them off with a simple, “Their beliefs are nonsense and unprovable.”
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Agreed – it's a frustrating and flabbergasting hypocritical double standard that they use such logic for everything BUT their own religion/beliefs … no THOSE are above and beyond reproach, but everything else is fair game and must meet standards of logic and evidence.
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Back to my comment “It makes no difference what you believe Gary. What is, is. Just because you think otherwise or it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't make it true or not true. If hell is there, regardless of your beliefs or your reasoning, it is there.”
I ask again: What is the difference to you? You think your reasoning is pretty slick Gary but you aren't as smart as you think. None of us are. That's why there are so many beliefs as we all think/are different. But in the end what matters is the truth whatever that may be. You said the only good option is to dismiss them all (religions) unless there is sufficient proof to satisfy you. You: the special one, right? Your thinking has found nothing. My thinking has found something. I am not better than you but who is right in the end?
Robert Halls hypothetical comments are ridiculous. At least give reasoning that is…well…reasonable.
Chris
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Chris: So out of all the thousands of supernatural based religious claims in the world, why do you believe only one, the Christian supernatural claim? Why are you an atheist or at least an agnostic regarding all other supernatural claims? Why are you so “special” that you are able to eliminate all these other claims and supposedly pick the one correct claim?
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I have seen many of your posts and you are trying to prove as untrue what you used to believe. Your main focus seems to be hell and the unfairness of it is. It looks unfair to me also, especially the way you describe it. But I can not, with my human mind, decide what is fair, unfair or even true. Also I can not describe why I believe what I do. The proof you require is beyond reason, beyond what you probably require for anything else. I believe what I believe and can't explain to you why I do (and personally don't want to take the time to even try).
Chris
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Ok, Chris. I accept that answer.
I agree with you 100%: If the Christian Hell is real—I'm going to fry for all eternity.
But if the Muslim Hell is real—both me and YOU will fry for all eternity.
So even if we only had those two choices, avoiding the Christian Hell vs. avoiding the Muslim Hell, we have to pick one and reject the other, which means we have a 50% chance of being wrong, strictly by the odds. Now, add on top of that the many other exclusivist religions who will damn us to Hell or some other eternal misfortune for not believing their exclusivist claims…and what do we do???
Bottom line: There is no way to hedge our bets. There is no way to play it safe. If we pick one exclusivist religion over the dozens if not hundreds of other exclusivist religions, based on the odds, we are going to lose. If there are 100 exclusivist religions, and one of them is true, your odds of picking the right religion is one out of 100. Those are horrible odds, Chris.
If everything about the Bible were true and consistent, I would have stayed Christian, even with my doubts. But there are SO many inconsistencies, discrepancies, and basic scientific errors, that there is no way that conservative/orthodox Christianity is true.
As an example, I challenge you to do this: Take out two Bibles. Open one to Genesis chapter 1 and the other to Genesis chapter 2. Read the first verse from chapter 1 and then the first verse from chapter 2. Continue reading until the end of the chapter. There is NO WAY that an all-knowing God wrote those two chapters. No way. Now multiply this inconsistency by a couple hundred and you see how full of holes the Bible really is.
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@Chris – you're going to have to do better than that my friend … yes my hypothetical was meant to be hyperbolic and ridicules as to make the reasoning obvious. But the reasoning is sound … unless you can demonstrate otherwise.
The problem I see is simply that you, sir, cannot, under ANY circumstance, step outside of yourself to try to view a would without your god … and that's fine, you believe and have faith … but no Gary and I aren't “the special ones” we read your book and then researched the historical records and look at the observable world and find the evidence to support you (and all) religions(s) lack supporting evidence.
Good supposedly could speak to Abraham and show himself to moses in such a convincing manner as to get them to believe straight away … evidence, should be a snap for a god that has done all this before so easily … for the supposed god of the bible who absolutely craves our love, why would he make it so impossible to “see the signs”? I won't pretend to know the “mind of god” but yet christians speak and act as if god is their best drinking buddy and claim to know PRECISELY what god thinks and wants … unfortunately what god “wants” seems to often times align with what mortals want.
No sir, the evidence, we “require” is not “beyond reason” … according to the bible, god was dropping in on everyone, raising dead people sending angels, flooding the world, blowing up cities, turning people into salt pillars and whatnot. No, evidence for god could and more importantly SHOULD be easy for god to REproduce, just like the book that is supposedly his inerrant word says he did before.
Convenient that humanity sits on the precipice of a world religious war and (whichever) god chooses sit it out and watch with a bowl of popcorn.
But you can forget all that … I think Gary alluded to this … but, whatever reasons you have for rejecting, out of hand, every other religion, is why we reject christianity.
Now, one point I must also make is, not Gary nor I are making the claim to PROVE the NON existence of god … we simply say, the evidence to support that existence is lacking and we cannot believe such things without that evidence.
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I know there are inconsistencies in the Bible. I have seen some of them. But again it's too much to for me to resolve so I have set it aside for now.
I have seen requirements in some of the religions that a person needs to meet to stay out of hell. It is always a lot of work and you never know if it is enough. Christianity can be like that too. One never knows if they will make it….unless you believe in 'once saved always saved' which in itself is in conflict with the Bible. But if I have to choose between your example of Muslim and Christianity I will choose Christianity. Muslims are never sure they 'make it' unless they are martyred (their belief as far as I understand). Christians can be sure at least in some of the denominations so there is a chance for someone like me. I can guarantee you I do not understand much (more like ALOT) of Christianity but I choose to believe it. There is more out there than we as humans can understand and when I acknowledge that I don't need all the proof and can deal with the inconsistencies a little better.
Chris
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If the Christian God really loves you as much as the Bible says he does, why does he hold Hell over your head to make sure that you do what he says? That isn't love, Chris, that is sadistic abuse.
I believe that those of us who grew up in conservative Christianity, in which we were taught, since we could crawl, that our “loving Heavenly Father” would burn us if we disobeyed him, have been severely psychologically abused.
And I hear that same fear in your statements, Chris. Your brain questions the inconsistencies of the Christian belief system but a voice in your head tells you to play it safe and obey the monster who tells you that he is your “loving Father”.
He is not loving and he is not your father, Chris. He isn't even a “he”. It is an “it”…an evil, manipulative, imaginary, supernatural Boogeyman, a superstition, invented by ancient middle-eastern, scientifically illiterate goat-herders to make some sense of their chaotic world. And Hell was invented by evil Christian Churchmen to control the ignorant masses of their day, using probably our greatest fear: being burned alive.
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Gary you are so stuck on a fiery hell that you cant see beyond that….that there might be something you don't quite realize. Have you ever felt you understood something completely and then had a deeper understanding that made things so differently clear to you? Those goat herders you talk about were able to think better than you might realize. Why not? Just because they lived in a time before computers or all these other modern inventions doesn't make them unable to think like modern people can.
There is no (as you put it to me) voice in my head that tells me to play it safe and obey the monster who tells me that he is my “loving Father”. It is not a voice but God is a reality to me. What ever you believe or don't believe, it is what it is. I know you want an argument of facts but you wouldn't believe that either. You would find some excuse or reason around it. No matter what you believe or don't believe, reality exists and it isn't necessarily what you think it is. Yes I see many inconsistencies but I am not egotistical enough to think I can figure them out. It's not possible for someone to do that and I really don't need to.
Chris
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Chris,
Do you believe that the Muslim Hell is a reality, and, that you are destined to burn in that Muslim Hell for all eternity?
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Hell again?? Whatever were you taught about Christianity? I have never thought about Muslim hell to be honest. And I don't focus on the hell that a lot of fundamental Christian churches preach. There are plenty of inconsistencies and differences of beliefs in Christianity. I KNOW I cant figure it all out and I am ok with that.
You stated:
“why does he hold Hell over your head to make sure that you do what he says? That isn't love, Chris, that is sadistic abuse. I believe that those of us who grew up in conservative Christianity, in which we were taught, since we could crawl, that our “loving Heavenly Father” would burn us if we disobeyed him, have been severely psychologically abused.”
It is sad you were taught that. I heard stuff like that too and felt stressed over it but this is not the Gospel. The Gospel teaches 'the burden is light' and I found that to be true. I heard so much 'obey' stuff and actually heard a former pastor of mine say that if a person lived a good Christian life but disobeyed as little as running a stop light and getting killed doing it, they were hell bound. Stuff like that is what makes people atheists (where I almost ended up) or so bound up on worrying about hell and law that life is miserable.
Chris
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Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. —Jesus of Nazareth
Jesus said more about Hell than anyone else in the Bible.
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If you did not grow up in a fundamentalist church you will never understand the life long psychological effects that “Hellfire and Damnation” preaching has on someone.
I remember many an “altar call” where the preacher (usually my dad) would say, “I want us to sing one more stanza of 'Just as I Am' because there may be someone here who is lost and tonight is his or her last chance to repent and ask Jesus to be their personal Lord and Savior; Tomorrow you may be in a car accident and be instantly killed. Time has run out. No time to pray for salvation then. It will be too late. And, my lost friend, you will open your eyes and find yourself burning in the Lake of Fire…for all eternity!”
That has quite an effect on a seven year old.
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Wow Gary. Very sad. I heard stuff like that too but not growing up. More like in a fundamental church we attended for awhile. But to have your dad say that while growing up would be difficult. A parent has a different affect on a child than just any preacher. It sounds like the example I used of being killed running a stop sign except that particular preacher was talking to Christians and how they would go to hell if they died without repentance. I thought what if you died after you had a jealous thought or maybe looked at the opposite sex in the wrong way. It seemed there was only one good part to Christianity and that was accepting the altar call (which lasted about a minute). After that you were stuck trying to live up to what God wanted and it was constant stress.
You went one way in your questioning and I went another way. I wished at times I never heard of Christianity but when I truly dug into it and found a pastor who was understanding and could answer my questions I did find that the burden was light.
Chris
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If you can be happy in a version of Christianity that does not include God burning you alive for not doing what he says, that's great. I have no issue with moderate/liberal Christianity. I see it as the equivalent of a social services organization.
It is fundamentalist/conservative Christianity that I have an issue with. The entire belief system is based on fear…with a very thin coating of “Jesus loves you” on top.
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If everything about the Bible were true and consistent, I would have stayed Christian, even with my doubts
Me too Gary (also glad comments are back)
I'm having a similar conversation with someone and now she's trying to say that hell isn't “burning fire” but “outer darkness” and that is somehow worse.
http://susanflutterbys.blogspot.com/2015/03/another-post-on-hell.html
I totally agree that a loving father who will burn you forever if you don't love him back is NOT LOVING AT ALL. ????
Why is that so hard to “get”?
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It is fundamentalist/conservative Christianity that I have an issue with. The entire belief system is based on fear…with a very thin coating of “Jesus loves you” on top
Well said.
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Hi Alice! Nice to hear from you.
Yes, it is amazing how moderate and liberal Christians will twist themselves into pretzels to explain why Jesus really didn't mean what he said when he described hell as a place of fire and brimstone. As much as I dislike fundamentalism, at least fundamentalists believe what the Bible says, and what the Bible says is so outrageous, it is obviously false.
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